As part of a special season on Project 2025, A'shanti is zooming in on two key states -- Arizona and Florida -- which have served as a model and playbook for conservative education policies. Among these are school vouchers, book bans, and cuts to public school funding. A'shanti is joined by Maria Polletta, an education equity reporter with the Arizona Center for Investigative Reporting, and Michi Ceard and Muah Dahn, organizers with Florida Student Power, to explore the impact of these policies.
As part of a special season on Project 2025, A'shanti is zooming in on two key states -- Arizona and Florida -- which have served as a model and playbook for conservative education policies. Among these are school vouchers, book bans, and cuts to public school funding. A'shanti is joined by Maria Polletta, an education equity reporter with the Arizona Center for Investigative Reporting, and Michi Ceard and Muah Dahn, organizers with Florida Student Power, to explore the impact of these policies.
The Brown Girls Guide to Politics Podcast is all about amplifying the voices of women who are too often forgotten in media coverage. Host A’shanti Gholar leads conversations with women changing the face of politics. In the BGG to Politics blog, A’shanti created a space for women of color to learn about the current state of politics, to support others breaking into the political sphere, and to celebrate incredible women changing the course of the country. A’shanti founded the blog in 2018 and Wonder Media Network is thrilled to extend her platform to audio.
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A'SHANTI:
Hey, brown girls, it's Ashanti. I'm your host for the Brown Girls Guide to Politics. Over the past few years, states like Arizona and Florida have been a testing ground and a playbook for what conservatives want to see in education, including school vouchers, book bans, cutting back on public school funding and more. So I thought, who better than a reporter and activist on the ground to give us a sense of what Project 2025 proposals look like in the states? I'm thrilled to bring in Maria Pauletta, a reporter with the Arizona Center for Investigative Reporting, whose work focuses on education with a specific lens to equity. and Michi Ceard and Muah Dahn are students and organizers with Florida Student Power, they are working to engage young people in black and brown communities around a range of issues. We'll get their insights about what's happening on the front lines of education and what can be done about it. I'm really excited to dive today's episode on education, which is brought to us by the Letter M because we have Maria Michi,
MARIA:
My name is Maria Polletta. I'm reporter with the Arizona Center for Investigative Reporting, uh, based in Phoenix, Arizona. I'm focused primarily on educational inequities in our K to 12 system here in Arizona, but also do some more general investigative work.
A'SHANTI:
Awesome. Michi, let's go to you.
MICHI:
Yes. Hello everyone. My name is Michi. Pronouns she/her/goddess. Currently the organizing director at Florida Student Power. And I have the awesome opportunity and privilege with working with young organizers across the state in supporting their campaign work as well as, um, supporting our political education work at Florida Student Power.
A’SHANTI:
Awesome. And Muah?
MUAH:
Yes. Hi everyone. My name is Muah. I'm the education justice organizer with Florida Student Power, as well as a political science student here at the University of Central Florida.
A'SHANTI:
Thank you all so much for being with us. And Maria, I wanna go back to you and just find out a little bit more about how you came to the education beat and the work that you have been doing. And how the landscape has changed, particularly this election cycle as you cover everything that is happening around education. I'm pretty sure you don't have a dull day.
MARIA:
A’SHANTI:
And Michi and Muah, Tell us a little bit more about Florida Student Power and the work that you all do and how did you all come to it as young organizers?
MICHI:
Definitely. Um, so Florida Student Power is a youth-driven organization. Um, we started back in 2016. Um, back then our organization or youth who were in organization were focused on organizing around the 2016 elections, which feels like such a long time away, but it really isn't. And from that organizing, um, and after the results of that election, a part of that membership decided that they wanted to continue the work of ensuring that youth, um, had the tools necessary in order to have a seat at the table and organize. Through organizing. We truly believe that we could create a Florida that was safe, sustainable, and a centered black brown working class directly impacted young people. Our hopes is that through our organization, not only will youth, um, have the opportunity to organize, but they'll all also be radicalized, um, and also will be educated. And so we do focus a lot on political education. Um, we have a political education program which times, which tries to reclaim education with the attacks that's been happening across the state called Power University, which really centers in radicalizing young people and ensuring that they're equipped to lead the charge in creating, um, a new Florida. And, uh, I'll pass it over to Muah, who as our education justice organizer, can, can talk a little bit more about that.
MUAH:
Yeah. Um, so I came into Florida Student Power, really because of like one really hot button issue, which was the defunding of diversity equity inclusion in Florida, which is like one of our big, um, educational issues. So, when it comes to education justice in particular, we've been pushing back against that. So that's like censorship at the higher education level as well as just any type of like political repression, and then also I work with K through 12 as well. Whether it's dealing with book bans, dealing with defunding of public education, or just a lack of resources or equality in that education system. We do any sort of work there, make sure we're holding our school board and members accountable, um, and allowing students to have a platform to actually speak about what's going on at their school.
A’SHANTI:
And Muah and Michi, I wanna stay with you all because I know our listeners, we've seen everything that has been going on in Florida around education under Ron DeSantis, you know, really clutching our pearls. When you see thousands of books that are just being thrown out, we know that the majority of those books are written by black and brown people. We see what is happening with trans students in school. There's just the overall education and what has it been like? You know, I wanna get a little bit personal if it's okay just to kind of see that in real time because unfortunately there are people that think that project 2025 is something that is on the horizon, but we know in Florida it is something that is already here. This is something that they will love to see implemented across the country. So what has been really the personal impact of knowing that you actually have a governor and under elected officials who want to roll back, people being able to understand and really see you to be able to have that education.
MUAH:
Yeah, I might take that one a little bit. Um, I think for me, a really evident like personal drawback has been, um, I graduated high school in 2020 in the height of Covid. Um, also in that year was the execution of George Floyd, um, and Breonna Taylor. A lot of these events that were tragedies but led to a larger social awakening. So we started to see, you know, that coming into schools, you know, really teaching students how to grapple with the state of the world, their place in the world, how they can make it better or how they may have certain privileges. So, um, with the passing, uh, the Senate bill that did lead to the book Bannings in Florida in 2021 and 2022 – it's been scary. It's been scary. I felt like the high school that I left four years ago was not what I've come back to work within. In particular, the county I'm from in Florida is responsible for two thirds of the book bans and the whole state. Um, and it's a single man
MICHI:
I, I wanted to add, um, because I remember when our education began getting all of these attacks, it was 2021 and we were just coming out of COVID and, um, legislative session was happening and we were one of the only student groups who were going to the capitol and, and lobbying against it and testimony after testimony from students, right? Legislators acted like they didn't care. Um, and that's something that is normal now in Florida, right? Like the people, um, speak, the people share like what's in their best interest and what they want. And our legislators who are bought by corporate interest, um, continue to turn their faces away from what, what the people want. And so it's definitely been disheartening. There's also been a culture of fear. Um, like Muah said, the colleges, universities and schools that we used to work with four to five years ago is not the same playing field that we currently have. To the point where organizations like our own are having huge difficulty in outreaching and connecting with students because teachers are scared, professors are scared, folks just don't want to engage because of like the repercussions that might happen if they do engage folks who are afraid of losing their jobs of, you know, of not being able to, um, you know, move within their institutions. And this is the result of the Florida that Ron DeSantis wanted, the Florida that, um, these conservative th think tanks and, um, folks who are like crunching out conservative policy attacking our education wanted. And so as folks are thinking of Project 2025 – Project 2025 is Florida 2024. Um, we've been living under this fascist government for a long time and we've been ringing the bell around it. Um, and hopefully folks listen right as we're speaking against it. And, and really do, um, at the polls make the decisions that, um, would not allow, um, this, this, this to happen nationwide.
A'SHANTI:
My heart just absolutely broke hearing the two of you talk how you can't recognize the schools that you went to, you know, this culture of fear. But it makes me even more thankful for the both of you and all the other students who are standing up who have that courage. I know, even though now my heart is broken, I always love when I see the clips of the young people going to the school board meetings and speaking out and saying, this is not the education that we want. This is not the future that we want. So thank you both. And Maria, I wanna go over to you. When you think about Arizona, the national landscape, you know, we are very, very close to election. Are you hearing from young people? Are you hearing from parents about how they fear about the current state of education?
MARIA:
That’s a great question. Uh, definitely have a vocal, um, group of students, well, various groups of course, um, that more and more have been increasingly engaged. Um, you know, it started back with, well maybe even before, but really took off with sort of March for our Lives movement, um, sit-ins at the Capitol, things like that. And, and those youth have continued to be, uh, very active in the conversation as you said, you know, sometimes you see them up at school board meetings or legislative hearings. Same with parents, uh, parents. It's a little bit more, um, I'm trying, I'm trying to think of the the best word here. There's a little bit more of a clash. Arizona has certainly been a ground zero for those quote unquote culture wars at school board meetings. I'm sure everybody's seen the headlines and the clips of people getting thrown out, throughout the U.S. So we've certainly seen a lot of that and, and parents butting heads. Uh, but we do have quite a few parents who have been out, have been canvassing. This is, you know, this ESA or voucher question has been something that when it was put to voters a few years ago, it, there was this huge outpouring and this huge amount of grassroots action to oppose it when it was on the, on the ballot and put to voters. And then it kind of legislators moved it forward sideways through, through legislative approval and, and some maneuvering that way. And people who originally opposed it are not happy about it. And in some cases, that was students who are now older and voting, and in some cases that was parents in a lot of cases that was public school teachers. So that is, that continues to be a very involved, um, population and, and set of voters.
A’SHANTI:
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
A’SHANTI:
Way to Win is a national hub for donors. Their goal is to build and strengthen multiracial democracy through strategic investments. And it's probably led by women of color like Tori DeVito, co-founder and president with the election imminent Tori and Way to Win are supporting grassroots work to protect communities against a threat or project 2025 and beyond. I wanted to hear more. So here's an excerpt from my conversation with Tori. We talk a lot here at the BGG about being donors to campaigns, to candidates to organizations because it fuels that work. And it's great to invest and know that you're able to do a little bit more besides just vote or volunteer that you can own a little piece of the work even with your small dollar donation.
TORI:
Oh, that's so true. Your, your time, your treasure and your talent. Right? That's what I was taught. So the down ballot is so essential, obviously. I mean, one of the wins that we had in 2018 coming out of the 2016 election was in Harris County. Lena Hidalgo at the time was in her mid twenties. Immigrant from Latin America. Came to the United States, saw that Trump had won in 2016, and said, if that guy can win, I should be running for something. I can win something. And she went after the biggest county office in the biggest county of the biggest state in the nation, right? She went after Harris County, she won that election and she oversees a billion plus dollar budget in a county that overlays the major port that imports and exports oil and gas for the nation, for the world even. And so when you think about the power that that office holds to really just get in and talk about what issues are affecting your community, that's the kind of level of government where things can change really quickly and boy, are they. And so I think we should remember when we think about ourselves as people that have resource, right? So I write checks to candidates, I write checks to the Texas Democratic Party. I write checks to, uh, grassroots organizations. They're not huge, but I wanna give what I can offer, and I also give a lot of my time that we should think about these lovers of power that aren't just about the presidential level of power. Because also, you know, these frontline leaders in elected office are gonna be our bastions of, of last defense if there's a worst case scenario of this cycle. And of course we just have to do both things. We have to fight like hell to fight for that trifecta. We have to keep the White House, we have to have enough votes in the Senate that we can pass major reforms so that we can get democracy reforms, reproductive rights reforms, and we have to fight for the house. There's just no in between. And I think there's a way, and we've been proving that a way to win, where when you work with grassroots partners, you know, they're putting everybody on their literature that they put put on doors. They've got everybody from Vice President Harris and Tim Waltz to maybe the local dog catcher, right? That they go down ballot in some of these community groups in ways that the party doesn't always.
A’SHANTI:
Yes. And I love that you talked about that just going way down ballot because we also have to vote for those races. Sister district, they just did some research and the drop off in presidential election years of people who will just vote for president and then not vote for anything else is wild.
TORI:
It's wild.
A’SHANTI:
And we are back.
A'SHANTI:
When you think about Project 2025, we know it is 900 pages, something we keep talking about a lot. Just some light reading, light reading over your morning tea and coffee. And we know the biggest thing that has stood out is them wanting to eliminate the Department of Education. And I think that's one of the big issues that helped bring a lot of attention to project 2025. People were like, what? You know, then there were like people like, well, if it means it's gonna wipe out my student loans, then let's do it. We're like, no, no, no, no, no.
MARIA:
To start with, of course this proposal to dismantle the Department of Education and basically turn it into a statistics gathering agency has made a lot of headlines, has ruffled a lot of feathers. That's a very bold and controversial proposal. Um, but it's actually not the number one thing that stood out to me because in terms of logistics, the president, at least as things stand now, that can always change as we've seen, can't unilaterally get rid of the Department of Education that would require an act of Congress, uh, which even project 2025 acknowledges. And that doesn't seem particularly likely. So even though Project 2025 says that they want to eliminate or that the agency should be eliminated, what it's really proposing, and what I find most striking is in practice, this proposal to essentially pick it apart piecemeal and get rid of some of these major programs, um, shift other programs to other departments and send a lot of funding and related responsibilities back to the states. And a fair number of those policy goals could be accomplished, you know, through presidential actions or would maybe have a better shot of making it through Congress. You know, my reporting has, has delved deeply into vouchers. Um, ESAs in Arizona, they're, they're branded as empowerment scholarship accounts. They basically work as checking accounts that parents can use for tuition, but also a host of other educational, um, expenses. And this is something that is very heavily promoted in terms of taking it national in Project 2025. Um, like you said, that that light reading several hundred pages, they paint a really rosy picture of this educational marketplace where parents hold the ultimate power to choose a learning setting that best meets their child's needs. Um, but that kind of ignores the fact that only public schools have to be open to everyone. Private schools can generally pick which students to accept or reject. Um, and in some of those cases, that means the parents and the kids are not doing the choosing. Um, we've seen that play out here in Arizona since we offered universal voucher eligibility to its credit. There have certainly been cases where children with, you know, disabilities or other special learning needs, um, or needs to be in a specific type of school environment have found success, being able to use that money to go to a different educational setting. But there have been plenty other cases where they thought, oh, this is gonna be great. I can finally get my kid the services he or she needs. And then the private schools that they went to didn't want to accept the kids. Um, and so it ultimately didn't pan out. There are kind of two, as I was speaking to, to experts, and this was not only educational policy experts, but constitutional law, you know, with extensive, uh, historical knowledge, their major concerns when it comes to that proposal and taking vouchers national were on the budgetary side. Um, the financial side. Again, in Arizona, this program was billed as something that was going to save the state money. In fact, we've in practice seen a lot of kids who were previously going to private school and their families paying for it now do it on the state's dime by taking vouchers, um, and going to the schools they were going to anyway. But more importantly, concerns about student equity. You know, I had a couple of experts tell me that they essentially worried project 2025's proposals are purposely setting up public schools to fail by stripping their funding while concentrating higher need harder to educate kids there. And essentially exacerbating segregation, uh, which could have disastrous implications of course for, for student equity and project 2025's, recommendation to phase out Title one funding, which is of course designed to close achievement gaps at poorer schools would only add to that divide in their opinion. Along those lines, you know, it's proposing changes to the individuals with Disabilities Education Act, which protects students with disabilities, basically, again, trying to take some of that funding and set it up in a, in a voucher type program as well. There are changes proposed in terms of anti-discrimination protections rolling those back, particularly for L-G-B-T-Q students. So it's really, you know, it goes, it goes well beyond the proposal about just the agency of the Department of Education and really is, is picking apart a lot of what that agency does and has moved toward in the last several years.
A'SHANTI:
Yes. And we know with Project 2025, there's so much that they wanna do by executive order, which is extremely scary, which is why it matters who the president of the United States is, but a lot of it they do need to do with Congress and it is just taking things apart piece by piece. And Micha amis, we know that there have been project 2025 type bills already introduced in Florida. Is there anything from Project 2025 that really stands out to you all that you would love to tell our listeners? Because you already know the negative impact that it will have on students and young people.
MICHI:
What's been happening on the education front, um, has been visible to folks across the country in Florida the way that, um, book bands have been implemented. Um, we also have a universal, um, school voucher program. Um, the rise of charter schools, um, uh, the banning of DEI, um, on campuses, right? I think one thing that's worth mentioning around all of this is that through what we've been going through in Florida, we've noticed how folks have began to become apathetic, apathetic to what's been going on in the state and also just not aware and not willing, um, to react against it. And I think that it's something to highlight because that would be something that would be implemented nationwide that could also become the culture. Folks can lose motivation and they can also become pathetic to the process and not want to engage.
MUAH:
Yeah. As far as effects some major things that we're already seeing, one with like the passing of the don't say gay bill in 2022, which basically allowed for the discrimination against lgbtq plus students and faculty and staff. Since then, we've seen an uptick in bullying for students, which is leading to worse mental health, which is leading to suicide rates going up. But we're also seeing, um, a really bad teacher shortage to the point of where Florida's had to even draw back some standards for hiring teachers because there's so few people that want to stay in the field. So, um, seeing that becoming something nationwide, 'cause that's the initiative, initiative of project 2025, is to basically codify discrimination against queer people. So for that to be nationwide, I can't even imagine what a nationwide teacher shortage would look like and the way that would set us all back, not just as a state, but as a nation, like economically. And then in particular, just because, um, since 2020 when we had a bit of like a social shift, we're in like a time of understanding of our different oppressive systems, whether that's racism, sexism, homophobia, and the fact that, you know, programs are being implemented to work against this. And now project 2025 is working to remove those, it's, it's really scary. It's really scary to see us going backwards and it's already decimating our education system. So I can't even imagine what it would look like on a nationwide scale.
A’SHANTI:
What you said is just so important, especially when you notice, you know, that teacher shortage because of course, who's going to wanna work in that type of atmosphere when they can be mistreated in their profession, but you're also being told that you can't protect these children, and we know teachers should be protecting educating children. That's part of the job. This has been a great conversation and I wanna close out by giving you all the chance just to tell our listeners as they head to the polls, if they haven't voted, if they know any undecided voters, what should they really keep in mind about education as they are casting their ballot? Let's start with you Muah.
MUAH:
I think one thing to just keep in the back of our minds as we continue to vote is that education is not just a problem for children and for students. It's a problem for every future generation to come. Education is our foundation, and if students are not able to be well-rounded in that it'll end up in an older working class that's not able to be well-rounded. so I think we should really think about those implications.
MICHI:
Yeah. Um, I just really want folks, um, to think about the decision that makes sense,
MARIA:
So obviously I'm coming at this from, uh, a different perspective because in my role as a reporter, I, I can't advocate for anything really beyond being informed and, and having quite a bit of this context. However, I can say when I switched from politics to this educa– investigative education beat, I really viewed it and pitched it as an everything beat. A lot of people, you know, think, oh, well I don't have kids in school. Why should I care about K 12? Or, I have a kid in private school, why should I care about public schools? And really education, kind of like Muah said is, is it it intersects and overlaps with everything and sometimes even serves a, an in as an indictment of several of these systems, you know, politics and policy making, the criminal justice system, labor issues, transportation, housing quality, healthcare access, all of these things intersect with the education system, particularly the public education system. So I would encourage, um, folks to have that in mind also over the course of my reporting on Project 2025, this is by no means to say the public school system is perfect or is is, you know, serving everyone. I, I would be out of a job if everything was running swimmingly, right? Nothing to investigate. No. That, that would be a dream. I I think people should keep in mind kind of the history of the public school system. It was described to me by, by the experts I spoke to, as you know, a long running American tradition that started out as a way to bring together children of all backgrounds and to produce an informed citizenry, um, to offer, you know, exposure for kids to, to kids, to all kinds of other kids and families basically have that emphasis, um, on exposure and on equity. If voters and politicians are going to change how that works, um, that's something that we need to keep in mind and what the alternatives look like are something that, that voters should have in mind in terms of what they wanna see.
A’SHANTI:
Thank you, Maria. I love that. Yes, it is an everyone issue. If you have kids, if you're a pink like me, a professional aunt, no kids. If you're a caregiver, we should all care about the little ones in our society and that they grow up with what they need and they get to go to schools where they feel safe from harm. Maria, Michi Mo, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate everything that you do, and thank you for sharing your insights with our listeners. Of course. Thank
MARIA:
Thank you for having us.
MUAH:
Thank you so much.
MICHI:
Thank you.
A’SHANTI:
Thank you. Next time. It's only been two years since the Dobbs Supreme Court decision in that time, the landscape for abortion and reproductive healthcare has already changed dramatically. I mean, we see it every day in the news, but Project 2025 would take it even farther. We'll talk about what the proposals would really mean for people across the country and the world brought to you in partnership with Way to Win. Thank you so much. To all of our listeners. Please take the time to rate and review wherever you listen to your podcast. It helps us out so much. For more information on The Brown Girls Guide to Politics, check us out@thebgguide.com and on Facebook, Instagram, and X at the BG Guide. This show is produced by Wonder Media Network. You can find them@wondermedianetwork.com.
HARRIS AD:
Every American deserves the right to fair housing, and Kamala Harris is working to make that right realized by a saw. She learned firsthand how hard it is to work toward the dream of having a home. As California's attorney General Kamala Harris took on the big banks in Wall Street, and now she's looking to give first time home buyers $25,000 for a down payment This November, vote for the leader looking out for your home. I'm Kamala Harris, candidate for president, and I approve this message. Paid for by Harris for President.