This season, A'shanti is doing a deep dive into Project 2025. The 920 page document represents a vision for government unlike anything we've seen before. In this first episode, A'shanti speaks with Kimberly Atkins Stohr and Dr. Tammy Greer about the authors and vision of Project 2025, and why former President Donald Trump has been quick to distance himself from it. Plus: how its policy proposals would change the way the U.S. government operates.
This season, A'shanti is doing a deep dive into Project 2025. The 920 page document represents a vision for government unlike anything we've seen before. In this first episode, A'shanti speaks with Kimberly Atkins Stohr and Dr. Tammy Greer about the authors and vision of Project 2025, and why former President Donald Trump has been quick to distance himself from it. Plus: how its policy proposals would change the way the U.S. government operates.
The Brown Girls Guide to Politics Podcast is all about amplifying the voices of women who are too often forgotten in media coverage. Host A’shanti Gholar leads conversations with women changing the face of politics. In the BGG to Politics blog, A’shanti created a space for women of color to learn about the current state of politics, to support others breaking into the political sphere, and to celebrate incredible women changing the course of the country. A’shanti founded the blog in 2018 and Wonder Media Network is thrilled to extend her platform to audio.
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HARRIS AD
Every American deserves the right to fair housing. And Kamala Harris is working to make that right realized by us all. She learned firsthand how hard it is to work toward the dream of having a home. As California's attorney General Kamala Harris took on the big banks in Wall Street, and now she's looking to give first time home buyers $25,000 for a down payment This November, vote for the leader looking out for your home. I'm Kamala Harris, candidate for president, and I approve this message. Paid for by Harris for president.
A'SHANTI
Welcome back, brown Girls, A'shanti here. I'm your host for the Brown Girls Guide to Politics. We are only a few days away from the presidential election. In advance of this critical vote, we want to ensure that you understand exactly what's at stake. That's why this season we're diving into Project 2025.
A'SHANTI
This 900 plus page document represents a vision for government, unlike anything we've seen before. Underpinning it is a profound shift to a more powerful executive and specific policy proposals that would impact the lives of nearly all Americans. Throughout the season. We'll look at how this conservative project would drastically alter education, abortion, and America's role around the globe. However, we will start by bringing two people to the round table to help us understand the foundations of this document. Its architects and its connections to the Trump campaign. And whether Trump wins or loses in November, this remains a playbook for Republicans across the country. The ideas have been planted and the proposals have been drafted.
A'SHANTI
Project 2025 represents progression of an extreme political right movement that poses a threat to marginalized communities everywhere. So today we're excited to welcome back to the show, Dr. Tammy Greer, a public policy expert and assistant professor at Georgia State University. Her forthcoming book explores the long game the conservative right is playing and the lessons Democrats could take away. We'll also be joined by Kimberly Atkins Stohr, a senior opinion writer at the Boston Globe, MSNBC contributor and co-host of the SistersInLaw Podcast. She has covered politics, policy, and law for over 20 years. Her career as a civil trial and appellate litigation attorney informed her of her focus on national political and legal analysis. Welcome to the show, Kimberly and Tammy.
A'SHANTI
We really want to dive into Project 2025. This was something that was kind of a sleeper for a while, but it really started to pick up steam. By spring more people are talking about it and by summer everyone was like, have you read or have you seen parts of Project 2025? And the first thing that we really need to talk about is who are the people behind Project 2025? Because there is still some miss and disinformation about it. So Kim, I wanna start with you. Let's go back to the beginning. Where did Project 2025 come from and who are the actual people behind it?
KIM ATKINS STOHR
Yes. So Project 2025 was created by The Heritage Foundation, which is a conservative legal group that has been instrumental in all kinds of conservative policies being put through, including helping to ensure that conservative justices and judges are appointed throughout the federal judiciary. Well, every year The Heritage Foundation had put together a bit of a policy wishlist. You know, things that they would like to see from the administration. Not every year, every presidential election they've put this out, but Project 2025 takes that to a new level in that it is The Heritage Foundation, along with authors who were people who were previously from the Trump administration, previously from his campaign, his White House, his inner circle, who have also chimed in and made it more of a policy directive. It's not a wishlist anymore. It is something that is ready to be implemented on day one to put into place these very conservative draconian policies to build on what was already done during the Trump administration itself. Everything from voting rights, to education, to immigration, to abortion access. And they put it in a document that would allow it to go into place, whether or not Donald Trump was actively doing it when he was in office or not, the gears would be ready, the personnel would be on deck to implement this the minute he is sworn into office. So this is different than past policy statements that The Heritage Foundation has put out.
A'SHANTI
It is, and one of the things that we know is they wanna do the majority of this, if not all of it, by executive order. So it doesn't even matter who is in Congress. This is based solely on we need this person at the Oval Office in that chair doing these things with the swipe of a pen. And Kim, Tammy, I wanna ask you both. I don't think we've ever seen anything quite like this before in the history of our country.
TAMMY GREER
So The Heritage Foundation has been around since about 1979, officially the last year of Jimmy Carter's presidency. When we fully appreciate what The Heritage Foundation has done since Ronald Reagan era is to find its way, infiltrating its way into conservative politics on the state and federal level. So when one thinks of some of these policies that appear to have crept up in the way that we view women's bodily autonomy, it's slowly been making its way through the state level, up to the federal level. And then there are the tentacles that have come out when it comes to full appreciation of how our system of government works. So that means that some of these policies start at the state level because that's where the laboratories of democracy are. This is where most of the policies that impact us on a daily basis are located on the state level.
TAMMY GREER
Conservatives then tend to push some of those policies there so that those policies can be challenged in federal court so that those challenges can then go up to the Supreme Court, which means that The Heritage Foundation understands the importance of having individuals that are like-minded at all levels of government. And then we see generations of policies overturned. It's important for us to fully understand that they understand how our system of government works, that they use the levers and systems of government the way that moves into the direction that they want our system of government to move. And it's important for those of us who are opposed to some of these ideologies and some of these policies and some of these efforts to be just as diligent as these particular organizations to combat some of the policies that they're putting forward.
A'SHANTI
I swear this podcast could be two hours, all the things that I wanna talk about. But Tammy, you really talked about how you have to have the right people in place to get this agenda passed — Donald Trump as President, JD Vance as Vice President — that's their dream ticket. The things that they talk about, you can see represented in Project 2025. But despite this, we continue to see the Trump-Vance campaign disavow themselves saying that they're not associated with it. What, what do we make of this? Because we see it, we hear it, we know it, but let's be real. They're playing in our faces about trying to say, oh, they don't know anything about Project 2025, Kim.
KIM ATKINS STOHR
Yeah, unlike in the past when The Heritage Foundation would put out its policy proposals and projections, it would do so without much notice from the media. It was meant for a sort of an internal audience of folks that say, “okay, even if you don't like someone like Donald Trump, it's okay. Vote for him. We got you covered. We're going to give you what you really want.” Well, the American public and eventually the media got savvy about it and it was when people saw and understood that this is an action plan. I mean, if you can, you can go to the website yourself. You see it's a 180 day action plan and there's a big button on there that says “Apply now”. They're galvanizing through this website a database of potential employees to install throughout the federal judiciary to implement this plan on day one. Well, even now on the website it's saying, well this is not by Donald Trump.
KIM ATKINS STOHR
Well, it's because the campaign saw polling numbers and people read Project ‘25 and they don't like it. So they're trying to distance themselves from it. But make no mistake, this is a part of the plan that will be implemented if he is elected. And even if he didn't know anything about it, which is a lie, even if he didn't agree with it, which is also a lie, he knows he needs those folks and he needs to do this in order to get the power that he seeks. So this is very real. This is very much attached to Donald Trump and this will very much be a reality if he wins.
A'SHANTI
Mm-Hmm. And Tammy, I wanna go to you 'cause you say your passion project is conservatives, . There seems to be this just real undercurrent of really trying to take us back to the full white male patriarchy days. And I see Project 2025 as part of the backlash to the progress that this country has made, the closer and closer we get to becoming a multiracial, multi-ethnic democracy. And when you have a president Kamala Harris, that definitely moves you more towards that. So how are you seeing Project 2025 play in this new conservative movement that they're trying to push?
TAMMY GREER
So this is the newest version of the Southern strategy and instead of it being a southern strategy, it is now a US-wide strategy. And one could also argue that it's a worldwide strategy. And what it's doing is: it's taking groups of people who have grievances for whatever reason and preying upon those grievances and, perhaps, making it seems as though some people are getting items in the country that they don't deserve. And because these individuals that are speaking to them speak in terms of, just as with the Southern strategy, just as at the end of reconstruction when we had the Jim Crow areas, it is pinning groups against each other that are natural allies because they have the same social, political and economic status as each other. They may just look differently. And that's what's happening with Project 2025. That's why you see individuals who really would have a challenging time surviving under Project 2025 are going along with it because there's a grievance against one group or another. And we're using policy to create wedges. And those that will benefit, particularly those that are aligned with The Heritage Foundation and other conservative organizations — they are sitting back winning because the rest of us, the masses, are fighting each other when we're not reaping the benefits of these policies, these status, this economic hold that these groups are advocating for. We will get the crumbs and they're going to get all of the cake.
A'SHANTI
Whew. Tammy, what you said is just so true. This is all just to make us other each other. To have a scarcity mindset really is what they want for us to have.
KIM ATKINS STOHR
And it's been effective. I mean, think about, if you remember the Tea Party era was born out of this exact thing. It was using Obamacare, which to this day is, still remains popular. And it's something that Republicans keep claiming they wanna get rid of, but they know they can't because Americans like it. They like coverage for preexisting conditions, they like coverage for preventative care and all the other things that Obamacare brings. But it was a referendum election, that Tea Party election in 2012 against Obamacare because immigrants were getting it, if you recall. Like, “oh, they wanna give Obamacare, they wanna give free healthcare to immigrants.” And I read a book, it was called Dying of Whiteness, that did a deep dive into rural white poor folks who opposed Obamacare and even have it fully explained to them how much it improves their lives. They were still against it because the immigrants would get it. So they wouldn't want it if that meant that they would get it to. And that's precisely when you see policies like this. Look at who is benefiting from pitting two groups against each other.
A'SHANTI
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
A'SHANTI
Way to Win is a national hub for donors. Their goal is to build and strengthen multiracial democracy through strategic investments. And it's probably led by women of color like Tory Gavito, co-founder and president. With the election imminent, Tory and Way to Win are supporting grassroots work to protect communities against a threat of Project 2025 and beyond. I wanted to hear more. So here's an excerpt from my conversation with Tory. You and I have been working together in this movement for a while, so I absolutely love when I get to dive in more with people I admire and respect so much and talk about their work.
TORY GAVITO
That's awesome. And the respect is mutual. I feel like we are kinda in an orbiting planets and the same universe and our stars sometimes align. So this is a treat for me too.
A'SHANTI
Loving it. Loving it. So I am very familiar with Way to Win, but tell our listeners a little bit more about your background and what prompted you to Start Way to Win.
TORY GAVITO
Yeah, so Way To Win is a national strategy hub for donors and the big core of our work is about amassing resources at scale to really support grassroots organizers to hit scale. The beginning though, the beginning of the concept of Way to Win was of course, looking way back at 2016, I had been working with grassroots leaders and donors supporting work in the great state of Texas where I'm from, I'm seventh generation Texan. And looking at data, I saw that the Sunbelt, Georgia, Texas, Arizona, Nevada, North Carolina, Florida. If you look at the demographics and if you look at voting trends, there are paths to victories in these states. And in 2016 when we lost at the national level, it was actually a bunch of Texans who were winning at the local level. And if I went around the country and listened to locals about what they were winning, there were some patterns that we saw.
TORY GAVITO
There was a pattern of organizing folks for the long term using interesting narratives to Knight coalitions and backing leaders that were real champions that looked like the new demographics of these states. And I felt really strongly that at the national level we didn't have the 25 years. It's taken Texans to figure out how to build multiracial democracy. We had to work much faster. And so Way to Win was launched under the concept that if we could move at scale quickly and and break down silos between the donors with the money and the groups on the ground with the big ideas, we could pair them
A'SHANTI
And win. Tory, I love what you said about the fact that there were wins on the ground in 2016 in Texas because I feel when we have presidential election years, when some of us don't get the candidate that we want in the White House, we tend to just focus on the negative. Like we lost everything. But we know that every year there are great wins. Thank you so much for being with us today and thank you so much to Way to win for making this special season on Project 2025 of the Brown Girls Guide to Politics Possible. Thank you A'shanti.
A'SHANTI
And we are back.
A'SHANTI
I wanna bring in this quote from Caroline Fredrickson, a law professor and legal activist. And she writes, “The left, even though we are somewhat court worshippers, never understood the potency of the courts as a political machine. On the right, they did.” Yeah. So I kind of wanna dive into this a little bit more 'cause it's a quote that fascinates me and it does ring true.
KIM ATKINS STOHR
It rings really true. I remember when I was a reporter, it was before I was a columnist in 2016, while the nomination of Merrick Garland, Barack Obama's nomination, final Supreme Court nomination was on ice because Mitch McConnell just said, “no, we're not doing this.” Breaking every rule of tradition that existed. And I was talking to members of the Senate up on the hill, Democrats saying, “okay, well what's the strategy? This is an election year. How do you message that?” And I got a lot of hys and haws and the Supreme Court is about justice for all and all this. It's like, no, the Republicans have made this an election issue. You elect Trump, you get conservatives on the Supreme Court who will implement a ton of policies including at the very top targeting Roe v. Wade, but also just changing how the census is done — immigration policy, healthcare, education, everything else.
KIM ATKINS STOHR
But Roe v. Wade was at the top and Democrats slept on it because they didn't have that muscle memory on the campaign trail. They did not equate elections to the courts. They said courts are independent, courts are not elected, which is true. But when you have your opponent totally tilting the entire federal judiciary in one way, what do you think is gonna happen? Very uneven rulings that have the effect of being like legislative policies done by the courts. If you wanna stop that, you do something, you campaign about how important the court is, you end the filibuster, you do everything that you can to protect that. But that didn't happen until it was too late. And then it's too late. Now, after Roe was struck down, voters understand that the courts were an important issue.
TAMMY GREER
Well, and it also goes along with Project 2025 and the vision of The Heritage Foundation since 1980. And that is in order to ensure some of these policies that conservatives want to ensure that it's there, then you go to the courts. And if you go to the courts again having lifetime appointments, then you can reshape policy because all conservatives need to do is just challenge whatever liberal or progressive law that there is in the state and take it through the federal courts that will eventually be conservative and have a conservative Supreme Court and whatever those progressive policies are can be overturned. So there, there is a strategy, as Kim said, there is a strategy in these United States. The majority of people who are in this country are not aligned with conservative policies, yet they are not participating. The reason we have so many conservative policies is because conservative voters vote consistently. Primary elections, off presidential year elections. They are consistent voters. So that's why it would appear that the United States is a center right country. We are not really a center right country. We have center right elected officials — that is very different from who the electorate is.
A'SHANTI
That reminder that the biggest voting block in the US is actually the non-voters. And I do want to take this into a more broad conversation about the judicial system because there is the fear of what could happen next. And there has been some very scary language that former President Trump has used lately about how he would weaponize the judicial system, the military. He talked about the enemy within, which is someone like me because I don't want a felon as president of the United States. That makes me an enemy to him. So how should we think about this overall, you know, outside of the courts, but to protect ourselves and frankly to still be a democracy? Yes, so much has happened that I think we start talking less about the fact that our democracy is on the ballot November 5th.
KIM ATKINS STOHR
It really is. And if he is elected, how do we know that he will ever give that power up? How do we know that he will not use that power to meet out revenge on those he perceives as enemies, to A'shanti's point. The rule of law would completely end. And, and to get it back to Project 2025, he would put the FBI under direct control of the White House, which is just the antithesis of what it's meant to do. The FBI has the jurisdiction to investigate federal crimes as it should, including crimes that might be happening in the White House. They need to be able to be independent of that. Now this would take all that independence away and turn them into Donald Trump's own police force. Again, that's also against the law. It's against the doctrine of Posse Comitatus, which means you do not use the military as law enforcement against Americans in America. You don't even need Project 2025. But when you look at it, they are in sync. They are the exact same sort of policy to empower him as a king in order to meet out this justice, democracy be damned.
A'SHANTI
That word right there, king Trump. We know that's what he wants. He said he'll be a dictator on day one. And Tammy definitely wanna hear from you on this.
TAMMY GREER
So not a lawyer, but just as someone who appreciates deeply the structure that's the United States — when one considers why the Constitution was written the way it was, why the Executive branch is Article two and not Article one is because the framers of the Constitution did not want a tyrant to which King George, the colonies separated from and became what is now these United States. And I find it very fascinating that the Federalist Society is not in line with the Federalist Papers. And they appoint judges who are aligned with the Federalist Society, not the Federalist Papers and who are giving authority to the President. That is the opposite of what the Federalist Papers note. And what it appears to me is that the judges are actually expanding the powers of the executive, which is moving beyond what's in the Constitution or blurring the lines when it comes to the separation of powers between the three branches of government.
TAMMY GREER
And so it's very fascinating to me the way to which conservatives are very thoughtful in their strategy and in their language in order to expand their ideology. That that moves beyond the paper. And it has moved into real life. It has moved into long-term policy. And if it were a former President Obama looking to do the same, would those particular individuals be okay with that? Would they be okay if current President Biden decides to test some of the expansion of powers that the Supreme Court has appeared to give to the executive branch? Because when I listened to Fox News, particularly when former President Obama was in office, calling him a king or a tyrant was a daily drumbeat. Yet when we come to the former President Trump, his actions are aligning with those words and we're finding it challenging to call that spade a spade.
A'SHANTI
Oh man, I need a moment . It is unfortunate that so many people think that that can't happen to us, but we've seen it happen across the globe with countries that have been rolled back. So I do wanna close this out 'cause like I said to the listeners, we could do two, three hours, but we always bring it back to Project 2025 , which is what we are talking about today. For those who think that project 2025 isn't really that bad, what would you say to them?
KIM ATKINS STOHR
So I would say to both people who have voted and who have not yet — I'm guessing if you're listening to this podcast, you care about voting and voting rights. And one of the things Project 2025 would do would make it so much harder for you to vote. You will notice in this year 2024, how much harder it is for a lot of you to vote than it was in 2020 when we had efforts to make voting accessible and safe and secure and it worked in the middle of a pandemic. But Republicans did everything that they could since then to shut those expansions down, to shut those protections down and to make it harder to vote against. You'll already realize that, just know that what Project 2025 would do would take as much of the power to regulate elections from local folks as possible, centralize it, work to criminalize it, criminally go after what they call this fraud that has never been proven.
KIM ATKINS STOHR
They won't wait for facts. They will use, uh, prosecutors to start going after people claiming that fraud existed in their election is right there spelled out in it. It would take the work in investigating election fraud out of the Civil Rights Division and put it in the criminal division. If you care about voter intimidation, make sure not only that you vote, but that you do all you can to ensure that elections are done fairly. If you want to volunteer. If there's still time, I would be one of the poll workers who help administer the elections. Tell your friends and family to check their voter registration, see if they've been purged from voter rolls, make sure they know where to go. Make sure they have the proper stuff they need. If they're going to vote on election day or before, do what you can to protect the integrity of this election. Because Project 2025 wants to take that away.
TAMMY GREER
And for me, the nerd in me says that Project 2025 is the gateway back to the Articles of Confederation. The Articles of Confederation allowed for the federal government to be small, in states to be big. And while we can appreciate states' rights, you know, that has its own kind of history. With that phrase, let's bring it to today though to today: we had two large hurricanes that came through Florida twice, one from Florida through Georgia, South Carolina to North Carolina. And the devastation that took place in those states under these pseudo Articles of Confederation, where your states are bigger and your federal government is smaller, the way that Florida, Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina will be able to be rebuilt is because of the vastness that is the federal government. That is because you have federal employees in FEMA. That's because you have the ability to get grants and monies to the Red Cross to go into those areas.
TAMMY GREER
It allows for states to get monies from the federal government in order to rebuild their infrastructure. It allows for the residents to rebuild their homes. This is because you have a central government that is there to help all states. And if you did not have a strong federal government, the states would be on their own. And how could those states — Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia — rebuild with the limited budget? How could they rebuild? And so my request to all of us who have not voted, we all live in a natural disaster space. And it comes when it comes. And the ability for the federal government to come and assist you is because of our system of government. I would implore all of us that just because we don't live in Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, North Carolina, in these moments, that you live somewhere where you will need that assistance and that assistance comes by having people who believe in this republic who believe that the federal government and all governments are here for the masses, and that it goes for the smallest thing through the largest thing. And that is why you should vote.
A'SHANTI
Kim, Tammy, thank you so much for joining us and sharing your amazing knowledge with our listeners.
KIM ATKINS STOHR
Thank you for having me.
TAMMY GREER
Thank you.
A'SHANTI
That was Tammy Greer and Kimberly Atkins Stohr.
A'SHANTI
In our next episode… we're going to look specifically at education, and how Project 2025 is pulling directly from Florida's draconian education policies. We'll hear how activists are already fighting back – and what lessons we can learn from them.
Brought to you in partnership with Way to Win. Thank you so much to all of our listeners. Please take the time to rate and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. It helps us so much!
For more information on the Brown Girls Guide to Politics, check us out at theBGGuide.com and on Facebook, Instagram, and X at The BGGuide. This show is produced by Wonder Media Network. You can find them at WonderMediaNetwork.com.
HARRIS AD
Every American deserves the right to fair housing. And Kamala Harris is working to make that right realized by us all. She learned firsthand how hard it is to work toward the dream of having a home. As California's attorney General Kamala Harris took on the big banks in Wall Street, and now she's looking to give first time home buyers $25,000 for a down payment This November, vote for the leader looking out for your home. I'm Kamala Harris, candidate for president, and I approve this message. Paid for by Harris for president.