In the third episode of a special season on Project 2025, A'shanti is speaking with activists on the frontlines of abortion access and reproductive justice. Since the Dobbs Supreme Court decision, states across the country have adopted a range of limits on abortion and reproductive health care. A'shanti speaks with Regina Davis Moss, the President and CEO of In Our Own Voice; Mia Ives-Rublee, the Director of the Disability Justice Initiative at the Center for American Progress; and Monica Simpson, the Executive Director of SisterSong. Together, they'll talk through the specific proposals outlined in Project 2025 -- and how that would impact an already difficult landscape for reproductive health care.
In the third episode of a special season on Project 2025, A'shanti is speaking with activists on the frontlines of abortion access and reproductive justice. Since the Dobbs Supreme Court decision, states across the country have adopted a range of limits on abortion and reproductive health care. A'shanti speaks with Regina Davis Moss, the President and CEO of In Our Own Voice; Mia Ives-Rublee, the Director of the Disability Justice Initiative at the Center for American Progress; and Monica Simpson, the Executive Director of SisterSong. Together, they'll talk through the specific proposals outlined in Project 2025 -- and how that would impact an already difficult landscape for reproductive health care.
The Brown Girls Guide to Politics Podcast is all about amplifying the voices of women who are too often forgotten in media coverage. Host A’shanti Gholar leads conversations with women changing the face of politics. In the BGG to Politics blog, A’shanti created a space for women of color to learn about the current state of politics, to support others breaking into the political sphere, and to celebrate incredible women changing the course of the country. A’shanti founded the blog in 2018 and Wonder Media Network is thrilled to extend her platform to audio.
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A'SHANTI:
Hey, brown girls, Ashanti here. I'm your host for the Brown Girls Guide to Politics. Today we're bringing on three people to talk about the ways Project 2025 would radically transform an already bleak landscape for reproductive care across the country. After ProPublica reported on the very preventable deaths of two women in Georgia, thanks to the State's abortion ban, the life and death stakes of access to reproductive care has never been more clear. As the Executive Director of Sister Song, Monica Simpson is a leading advocate for women of color in the South from funding care to advocating for better policies. Sister Song has been crucial in protecting reproductive care, particularly in the wake of the Dobbs Supreme Court decision when many states have limited or even banned abortion and other reproductive care entirely. Mia Ives-Rublee is the senior director for the Disability Justice Initiative at the Center for American Progress. She brings a crucial lens to the broader conversation about reproductive justice. And Regina Davis Moss is the president and CEO of In Our Own Voice. Her career has been dedicated to advancing not just abortion access, but reproductive justice as a whole, with a focus on the overall physical, mental and social wellbeing of women of color. We're going to talk about what Project 2025 means for healthcare and what lessons we can learn from the states that are already on the front lines of limiting care.
MONICA:
These mics are tripping today.
MIA:
There's two moons out, so you know.
A'SHANTI:
It's a clip season. Monica, Regina, Mia, thank you so much for joining us today. I am really excited to dive into Project 2025 with all of you. But first, just quickly introduce yourselves to our audience and give us a word to describe how you're feeling a few weeks out before another big election. Let's start with you, Monica.
MONICA:
Sure. Um, my name is Monica Simpson. I am the Executive Director of Sister Song. We are the National Women of Color Reproductive Justice Collective based in the ATL, shawty. I, I consider myself to like come to this work as a creative, as a fine auntie, as a person who has done their work in the south as a black feminist my entire career. Um, so I'm bringing all of that energy into this conversation tonight. And the word as we're heading into this election season for me is I would have to give two it's curious and pensive
A'SHANTI:
Mia, how about you?
MIA:
Yeah, my name is Mia Ives-Rublee. I am the senior director for the Disability Justice Initiative at the Center for American Progress. I am a social worker. I am someone who just enjoys being in community and organizing. I'm probably more of an organizer than a policy wonk. Uh, but I landed in the policy wonk role, came from the south as well, grew up in North Carolina. But in terms of a word, I would say hopeful. I'm trying to remain hopeful.
A'SHANTI:
Love it. Love it. Regina.
REGINA:
So excited to be in community with these amazing folks. I am Regina Davis Moss president and CEO of in our own voice, national Black Women's Reproductive Justice agenda. It's a mouthful. So all you need to know is that we're a powerful convening of black women led black women focused RJ organizations fighting for reproductive justice, for black women, girls and junior expansive people all day every day. And we do that through policy change and shift. Can't do one word. So I'm gonna say two words, which are fired up. But I don't mean it in, I mean it in a lot of ways. I mean it in that I'm little angry, I'm excited, I am like inspired. I feel like provoked, I feel galvanized. And so all of those have me just feeling kind of some kind of way in there, but fired up.
A'SHANTI:
Yes. So many feelings as we head into the November election and we know that people all across the country are having lots of feelings about project 2025. So many things in it is a very, very long document. So I wanna say thank you to the good people who have been reading it and condensing it down into digestible language for all of us to truly understand the negative impact that it is going to have. And we have to be clear. It is negative. It impacts every single person in this country in some way. And we know one of the big areas of focus in Project 2025 is abortion and reproductive justice in healthcare. And that's what we're gonna talk about today. So Regina, I'd love to start with you and we just wanna get clear with our listeners on some definitions. So could you touch on the difference between abortion access and reproductive justice? Because we hear it talked about in so many ways, so many terms, different people use different things. But let's get some clarity from the expert. What are we talking about when we use those two terms?
REGINA:
It is not reproductive freedom and it is not reproductive liberty. And I know we hear those things all the time. Reproductive justice is very different and reproductive justice is much broader than just abortion access. It's important, but it is much broader than that. And the black women that created it 30 years ago have always known that we have always known that you cannot only talk about abortion if we're talking about true bodily autonomy. So the definition is simply the right to decide if, when, and how to expand our families, the right to raise those families in safe and sustainable in beautiful communities that are thriving the right to bodily autonomy, which means being free from coercion and influence from the government or any power dynamic that doesn't allow me to walk it out in every day of my life. And then most important, the right to sexual expression to be able to live in love who I love, marry who I I want to marry. Because what we also understand that reproductive justice and reproductive freedom doesn't mean it's wound centric. It doesn't mean that you automatically need to have a child. It means all of the things that I talked about.
A'SHANTI:
Monica, anything that you would love to add to what Regina said? Yeah,
MONICA:
I think my sis, she hit all on the head. You know, ultimately this, this work is really about, of reproductive justice, is really about our human right to be able to make our own decisions about our bodies, our families, and our futures at the end of the day. And what's powerful about reproductive justice is that it's not just a movement, it is also a framework. And so this framework gives us the ability to talk about human rights. 'cause this work was really birthed out of these black women having these global experiences where they were seeing across the world how folks were connecting their lived experiences, like what was happening to them on an everyday basis to the fight for reproductive health and rights globally. And so them being a part of those experiences, wanting to bring that here to the United States is really what really set the foundation and the groundwork for this movement and this framework. Um, it's also very much rooted in black feminist theory, right? Like the way that we have to be able to define ourselves for ourselves and understanding that our experiences are unique and multi-layered. It is intersectional. Whenever we think about the, the history of like reproductive health and rights in this country really being rooted in this pro-choice language. There was a lot of good work that happened there. But what didn't happen was the fact that people of color, black women in particular, could not see themselves and their experiences rooted in that work because to think about having the ability to have a choice means that you gotta have the right to have the choice. And that was not necessarily a lived experience of those who have historically been pushed to the margins in this country. So that's what really has made this movement for me, my movement home because it allows me to bring my full self into this work. I don't have to, you know, compartmentalize or check some part of my identity at the door. It is broad enough and intersectional enough, um, for me to be able to see all parts of myself coming together. So the definition is clear, but I also want folks to understand that this framework is one that really is a liberation focus. And that really is about making sure that we are seeing how all the different things work together for us and how we have to look at them all coming together too.
A'SHANTI:
Mm-Hmm,
MIA:
Yeah, you know, uh, it's been interesting 'cause I, you know, I learned about disability justice, um, partially through the framework of reproductive justice because it was basically developed in a similar manner that there were was this civil rights movement, um, that was mostly led by people that didn't look like us. Disabled people of color disabled L-G-B-T-Q folks got together and we're like, look, a lot of the issues that we're worried about, including reproductive justice, particularly reproductive justice, um, but also over incarceration, et cetera, were things that weren't being picked up in the broader disability movement. And they developed this framework, um, much similar to, uh, reproductive justice, to state that liberty is, is much broader than sort of this right space perspective, this perspective or belief that a system is going to save us all. And so we got to have lots of conversations before Dobbs uh, fell. We knew it was coming, you know, we were trying to plan for it. We were trying to talk about the ways that it would impact disabled people. And so when it fell, you know, I, I could feel that pit in my stomach and I, I knew, I knew how it was going to impact disabled people, particularly because disabled people already have difficulty making decisions on their own because, you know, society has decided that we aren't allowed to make those decisions. And so these extra restrictions we're going to impact disabled people, particularly disabled people of color, significantly more than the general population. And so I remember I was on the street and saw a tweet that came out about it and I immediately went down to the Supreme Court and just wanted to be around other people that were feeling similar feeling. And then the next day it was literally back to the grindstone of how do we, how do we protect our people? How do we connect with organizations to, to ensure we that we push back?
A'SHANTI:
Thank you for sharing with us and just letting me get personal because I do think we need to talk about that when we're talking about abortion reproductive justice, especially as it relates to project 2025. And recently, we actually got to see it get real personal. I don't know if our listeners watch the livestream town hall with Vice President Harris and Oprah Winfrey. We had the family of one of the women who was impacted by the Dobbs decision initially.
NEWS CLIP:
I did not want the public to know my pain, I wanted to go through in silence, but I realized that it was selfish. I want y'all to know Amber was not a statistic. She was loved by a family, a strong family, and we would've done whatever to get my baby, our baby, the help that she needed.
A'SHANTI:
So Monica, as someone who is doing work in the South, you, you're seeing it firsthand and you know, these reports are just now coming out. But let's be honest, the minute Roe fell that day these stories started happening.
MONICA:
You're right. You know, as soon as the decision came down, we started to see the impact of it almost instantly. But I would also argue that we were seeing the impact of it before Dobbs decision even came down, right? Like the fight has been a long one. And I just want your listeners to, to understand that black women, um, in particular in the South, we have been on the forefront of this fight, um, well before the Dobbs decision. When we think about what started happening around 2010 when we saw hundreds of anti-abortion led pieces of legislation go through our state houses, in particularly across the south, from personhood bills to trap laws to sex selection bans, like they were throwing everything at the book to really try to get people wrapped up in this, this energy of, of dismantling Roe, right? That was also coupled with them coming with very racist propaganda. They erected billboards in Georgia. To that said, the most dangerous place for an African American child is in the mother's womb. And so even before Roe was taken down, we still had states like Mississippi that only had one abortion clinic. When we get to the point where, um, 2019 house before 81 and Georgia comes to to the table, we see the, the beginning of abortion bans, right? And these abortion bans were emboldened because of the roe decision, right? Or, or the Dobbs decision that took out Roe. And so we have been fighting sister song as the lead plaintiff in the case against this, um, abortion ban in Georgia since its inception. But once that abortion ban went into place, it took two years for us to really understand the true impact of these abortion bans, right? And that's how we get the story of Amber Nicole Thurman and Candy Miller because ProPublica did this deep research and thank God for maternal mortality review boards. If we did not have these in place and we would not be able to capture a lot of the information, a lot of the stories that we were able to capture that led us to the stories of Amber and Candy. Amber being a mother, was actually studying to be in healthcare, went to get care and could not get it. We have candy who was a mother who were, who was battling multiple, you know, medical issues, knew that she could not have this child but was scared to go. We have been moving research since 2014 once, particularly at Sister Song, it's called Reproductive Injustice, that name, that racism was the key factor in the ways that black women were being treated in maternal health, which led to the statistic of black women dying three to four times more higher in childbirth. We also have another report that also named the same things around the reproductive lives of black women in the South that overwhelmingly it didn't matter how much money they had, what their education was, that they were treated differently whenever they went to their healthcare provider. We've told them this in research, we've told them this in policy, we've told them this through the culture. Our lives have continuously been on the line. This was a storm that had been brewing right for a long time that ended in these preventable deaths of these two black women. So what have we been doing? We had to organize
A'SHANTI:
And Monica, you said it so well, we knew that there were these stories before, you know, Dobbs officially fell because there was a long-term plan to get us here. And when we talk about it in terms of Project 2025, I like to tell people this is not something that's on the horizon. This isn't something that will happen if he gets elected. It is here, it is already being enacted in several states, the various policies. So they have their blueprint of, oh yeah, we can actually do this. It isn't a pipe dream. They know that they can absolutely do this. And when we specifically look at the abortion policy proposals, abortion is mentioned 199 times in the document. But going back to that education piece, you know, starting with you Regina, was there a paragraph or a sentence that it just, it gave you that feeling that, oh my gosh, am I actually reading The Handmaid's Tale?
REGINA:
You know what I wish I could say it was just one paragraph. You know, you don't even have to get that far into this document in the first six pages. It's already talking about the goal is to delete terms like abortion, reproductive health, reproductive rights. And then it talks about like instead of having a US Department of Health and Human Services renaming that to the Department of Life, which would basically specifically reject the notion of abortion is healthcare. The priority is really just to strip bodily autonomy from everyone across the United States. You know, reproductive justice is a holistic framework and the way we achieve reproductive justice is by comprehensive policy. So we've touched on everything from abortion care to contraception to maternal health and pregnancy, to how it's going to impact, um, social justice and democracy. You know, things like equity and inclusion and the Census Bureau, they want to bol parts of the Census Bureau. Like this is how we get resource in our community. This is how we know what the demographics in our country are. There are so many, I just have to say crazy things that are in this document that it's astonishing. Um, it is intentional. It will send us back years, it will totally roll back everything that we fought for. And we cannot leave this to chance. We have to, we have to get out and vote.
A'SHANTI:
The listeners can't see us. But there's just lots of head nods and agreement of the craziness head shakes. Just this stuff is so wild.
A'SHANTI:
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. Way to Win is a national hub for donors. Their goal is to build and strengthen multiracial democracy through a strategic investments. And it's probably led by women of color like Tori Gavito, co-founder and president with the election imminent Tori and Way to Win are supporting grassroots work to protect communities against a threat or project 2025 and beyond. I wanted to hear more. So here's an excerpt from my conversation with Tori. I wanna talk more about a way to win intervention. Can you tell me a little bit more about what that looks like and just how it creates this full circle of the work that you all are doing to not only create this multiracial democracy, but protect our democracy?
TORY:
We view our role as a strategy hub that connects donors and the grassroots as not just one that creates these transactions where money flows and ideas flow and programs get funded and yay, everybody's got enough money to knock doors. That's great. I mean, that's definitely a big part of our work. And it's like we cannot look at places across the country and say, you know what? It's in the bag. We've got it all figured out. Let's just keep doing exactly what we've always done. And so way to win rolls up its sleeves and works with local leaders to say, if you could do something different, what would you do? Like if someone gave you a magic wand, I know we, we say this a lot
A'SHANTI:
We are back, brown girls. Mia, I wanna go to you next. When you look at Project 2025 abortion, I know the Center for American Progress, you all are looking at the whole document as well. What part of it? And like we said, all of it is wild, but when you think about your work just makes you go really,
MIA:
Uh,
MONICA:
I wanna pick up on something that Mia just said, um, that I think is so important. Like the, the unsiloing that we see happening right now. I think that what really excites me about the moment that we're in, in particular around abortion access work is that people are getting very clear about the ways in which their work is directly connected. Whether you're doing economic justice work or disability justice work, um, or voting rights work. Like all of these things are connected and I, I've, I've been preaching this for all the years I've been doing this thing, you know, our silos will not save us good folks. Like they just won't. And so I am, I just wanted to just give more love to Mia for just naming that we are seeing this unsiloing happen and more collective action is happening. And that to me, I think is really building up the momentum that we need. But in regards to project 2025, like I know my comrades, they didn't, they didn't told you all the things that's in there, but the thing that really sticks out to me in this thing is this surveillance piece. Like it looks like they are really trying to create like witch hunts out here. Um, and I, I'm not even saying that in the nicest sense of the word. Like to them they are trying
A'SHANTI:
The cruelty is the point. And I just wanna open this up to anyone who wants to start talking about the negative impact when you don't want women to have abortions, but you also don't want for them to have the tools that would prevent them from getting pregnant when they know that they wouldn't be able to afford another child. I really appreciate all of the families who are coming out telling their stories, just saying we would not be able to care for our family. There are the people who know that they would have to choose between them and the kid because of medical conditions. There are actual real reasons why people are on birth control, why they have IUDs and the people who need IVF because they do want to start a family and they do need that assistance. And for me, I just, that is not pro-life to me when you don't even want people to have the tools that they need to start a family who would like to start off about this? Regina, we'll go to you.
REGINA:
Let me double down on what Monica said about the surveillance, right? It's not only abortions, it's pregnancies, miscarriage, it's still birth, um, anything that's, you know, in conjunction with limiting access to care and criminalizing pregnancy outcomes. So this could be, you know, if you'd have to take a certain medication that could increase your risk, it is like so far reaching. And then, you know, we have to remember that there's two types of abortions, right? There's surgical and there's medication and which means people are taking pills and the majority of the abortions in us now involve pills. Um, so that document refers to abortion pills as the single greatest threat to an unborn child in the post-roll world. That's how extreme and dramatic they are. And they were encouraged the president to basically misinterpret a very old archaic law called the Comstock Act to say that it's, um, you must ban the mailing of any abortion pills or any equipment, uh, the speculum is used, you know, and we've seen speculums in our exams that that can be banned, right? If you violate that law related to come stop, people are could face up to five years in prison a ma when a maximum sentence would double if you were repeat offenders Affordable care act no longer covering birth control, that a pharmacist can say, I have a religious or moral exemption. You know, your employer can do that too. I don't have to provide you with contraception. And that's how we cover, um, or provide access to low income communities. Um, the list goes on and on and on. I know that people don't wanna read this document, but what you do need to take away is that it's very coordinated. Um, and it's very systematic and scaring enough is it doesn't require laws. A lot of these things can be passed with executive orders. And while this document has been around for a long time, um, we were only hearing about this particular version, but over 50% of the recommendations have already been implemented in these documents over time. Um, so make no mistake that they are not going to stop and that, um, they will find a way to get to what they want to do, which is ultimately maintain their control.
A'SHANTI:
When you put it in perspective like that, you know, Regina, that 50% has been implemented in some way across the country. Like that's the first time I I've heard that number. But then also thank you for that reminder that the majority of it can be done by executive order. So that is why we're having this conversation, everyone
REGINA:
We have to have policies and candidates that support our ability to have liberation in every aspect of our life. Um, you know, reproductive justice means that I have economic power, I have social power, have political power. I can have complete physical mental health. I can make assumptions about everything in my life without being worried, having, you know, my backup all the time because I'm worried about criminalization and all, all those other things. That's where we get to reproductive justice. That's a vision of justice and a lot of laws we have now, they exist, but just because they exist don't mean they're just, and they certainly have not been just for black women, girls in gender expansive people and people with disabilities. And so that's what we're fighting for. That's what we mean when we say, you know what? We have the opportunity now, now that that row's gone to, to fight for something more to get what we've always been fighting for. So that's what we're doing. Our folks already in our own voice are doing every day, is trying to make sure that we are allowed, that we remind people that black women are the largest, most decisive, most committed voting block in the American electorate. Make sure you prioritize us and you earn our vote. And then after you earn our vote, we're keeping the receipt
A'SHANTI:
MIA:
I think we have to understand that we have to use our whole toolbox. I think there's certain parts of our movement that are, are very focused on, on community organizing mutual aid. And that is extremely important. And we need to continue to grow that, particularly if we go in the wrong direction, we need to have the resources out there to help folks who, who have nowhere to go, um, who have no resources. Um, so many of them have disabilities. They are black and brown folks. Um, so mutual aid is extremely important. On the flip side also, we need to understand the importance of voting, not just for the top of the ticket, but all the way down the ballot and understanding who we are electing. Whether it is somebody who holds the purse strings and gets to decide sort of what we do with specific money, including around Medicaid and other social supports. We need to pay attention to who's leading in our, in our school districts, right? Um, we need to ensure that we stay focused and understand how politics, even, even if you are disgusted by whatever is going on in politics, you need to stay locked in and you need to utilize that tool. I, I think so oftentimes we're, we're focused on one or the other. I think so often we are so bogged down in the emergency of now that we have difficulty in imagining what, uh, a brighter future would be and what that would look like. So I think utilizing all of these tools to build towards that, that plan and that future all need to sort of coalesce so that we can build the communities that we wanna see and we can get towards a, a more just, um, society and a more caring society. Mm-Hmm.
A'SHANTI:
Monica, close us out.
MONICA:
Yeah. This has been so powerful. I think, you know, the only thing I would add to this is just, is three short things. One, I think that we have to make sure that folks are voting, that they're organizing with RJ values, right? Um, I'm so appreciative of the campaign that in our own voice holds like I am an RJ voter. Like really pushing that message, letting people know that our bodies are on the line, um, not just our lives but our literal bodies because the attack is on bodily autonomy. And that's where we are seeing, you know, the, this is where we're seeing the opportunity for us to build our most collective power is at that is at that intersection. So I'm just, I'm excited about that and I think that there's so much renewed energy around what that looks like. Um, for us at Sister Song two, it's also about shifting the culture. You know, I came to this work not as a policy person, not as an academic, not as public health. I came to this work, you know, as a creative, as an organizer, yes, but as a creative and someone who sees the power of culture, right? And I think that we are in the biggest culture shift moment that we have seen, right? And we have an opportunity to really lean into that. How do we make sure our people see themselves reflected in this work every single day? How are we meeting our people where they're at, right? That is a big piece of our work. One of our biggest things that really did shift the way, even the organizing around what we did for Amber and Candy was to really push this message of trust black women. And this has given us the ability to not only continue to move with black RJ at the center, but to bring our other black women led organizations and movements and folks into the conversation with us. Because I do think that our opposition has this picture of what they think the abortion access movement looks like. They're used to a particular type of person moving that work. What we're showing them through our culture shift work is that the, the face and the energy of that has shifted good people
A’SHANTI:
The perfect way to not only close this out, but a great lead into the next episode where we talk about how Project 2025 isn't just about the us it will have a global impact and we need to pay attention to that. Monica, Mia, Regina, thank you all so much for sharing your expertise, your knowledge, your passion, your wisdom with all of us. We are so lucky to have the three of you at the forefront of this battle leading us. And just thank you for what you do every day, because we know it's physical, emotional, and mental labor to lead this fight. So thank you. And we're always sending you all the love and good vibes. That was Regina Davis Moss Mia, eyes Ruble, and Monica Simpson. On our next episode, we'll continue to dive into Project 2025 and how it extends far beyond our borders. The policy proposals outline would impact the lives of millions of people around the world brought to you in partnership with Way to Win. Thank you so much to all of our listeners. We really appreciate you. Please take the time to rate and review wherever you listen to your podcast. It helps us so much. For more information on The Brown Girls Guide to Politics, you can check us out@thebgguide.com and on Facebook, Instagram, and X at the BG Guide. This show is produced by Wonder Media Network. You can find them@wondermedianetwork.com.
HARRIS AD:
Every American deserves the right to fair housing and Kamala Harris is working to make that right realized by a saw. She learned firsthand how hard it is to work toward the dream of having a home. As California's attorney General Kamala Harris took on the big banks in Wall Street, and now she's looking to give first time home buyers $25,000 for a down payment This November, vote for the leader looking out for your home. I'm Kamala Harris, candidate for president, and I approve this message paid For by Harris for President.