In our second conversation about third parties in the 2024 election, we take a look back at successful third-party candidates and the impact they had on our nation's politics. We discuss Ross Perot, Jill Stein, and what makes third parties so alluring with scholar Tammy Greer, a public policy expert from Georgia State University.
In our second conversation about third parties in the 2024 election, we take a look back at successful third-party candidates and the impact they had on our nation's politics. We discuss Ross Perot, Jill Stein, and what makes third parties so alluring with scholar Tammy Greer, a public policy expert from Georgia State University.
Thank you to our partners at Third Way for making this mini season of The Brown Girls Guide to Politics possible. Third Way is a center-left think tank and the driving force for high-impact ideas and advocacy campaigns that can unite the vast American middle to build political power and deliver solutions. Learn more about our research on third parties in 2024 at www.thirdway.org/thirdparty.
The Brown Girls Guide to Politics Podcast is all about amplifying the voices of women who are too often forgotten in media coverage. Host A’shanti Gholar leads conversations with women changing the face of politics. In the BGG to Politics blog, A’shanti created a space for women of color to learn about the current state of politics, to support others breaking into the political sphere, and to celebrate incredible women changing the course of the country. A’shanti founded the blog in 2018 and Wonder Media Network is thrilled to extend her platform to audio.
Follow The BGG:
Follow Wonder Media Network:
A’SHANTI
TAMMY
But Ashanti, here's the thing. We don't always agree with ourselves….
A’SHANTI
We don't!
TAMMY
… One hundred percent of the time, right? We change our minds. We shift perspective depending on who's around us… What perspective they're adding to the conversation. Did we think of that item? And more often than not, we didn't. And so then our view on an issue changes.
A’SHANTI
Mm-Hmm.
TAMMY
So why is it we want the grace for ourselves, yet we don't give that grace to someone running for office.
A’SHANTI
Oh, speak on it. Speak on it!
A’SHANTI
Hey Brown Girls! I’m A’shanti. This is the Brown Girls Guide to Politics. And that’s Dr. Tammy Greer. She’s a public policy expert and a professor at Georgia State University. Tammy teaches people about how our government really works.
I’m thrilled to continue our conversation about the role of third-party candidates in U.S. elections. Today, we’re discussing the lofty American ideal of compromise… the role third-party candidates play in presidential elections… and what’s at stake this year. Here to talk to us about all of this, is Tammy.
Tammy helps teach people about how our government really works. Tammy, thank you so much for joining us today.
TAMMY
Thank you for having me.
A’SHANTI
So, first, tell us a little bit about yourself and how did you get into this? What made you really care so much about politics, Black and Brown people, but more importantly, our presidential system?
TAMMY
Sure. So, originally I started off working in criminal justice. I ended up with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. As I saw these men and women, um, I saw that every other system had failed them. Educational systems, social services, health and human services, healthcare, those systems failed. Yet the criminal justice system caught everyone. So when everything fails, the criminal justice system will catch you. And then the thought came to me: if we can create a system or an educational system, a degree to address challenges after they occur, why can't we develop systems to be proactive? And as I, uh, walk through this journey of politics and policy, and how I teach my students, let's be proactive. If we have these conversations, let's talk about possible solutions. Let's be more thoughtful, methodical, and intentional about how we look at policies, how we look at the impact on people, and then how we can be the embodiment of the change that we want to see.
A’SHANTI
Oh, that is so beautiful. Your students are so lucky to have you in a class. I would love to have had a class with you. I really want to talk more about our current political system, particularly the presidential race. And one of the things that you have said that I find fascinating — frankly, I find everything that you say fascinating — was that the US was intended to be a two-party system, but a two-party system that was built on compromise. And I think we can all look around and see that that is not happening a lot. We've just gotten so far off really from compromise. When we look at votes on critical issues to the country, it really depends on who has control of Congress to see if that is going to get passed. How did we get here?
TAMMY
We've gotten here, um, because, unfortunately the, the electorate allowed the politics to get to this point.
A’SHANTI
Hmm.
TAMMY
So when we considered the United States and the Constitution from a politics standpoint, it, it was intended to invoke compromise. When I say that the electorate has allowed for this — I say that because we, the people, have the ability to vote, and we have been voting in people who are diametrically opposed to many of the things that the vast majority of the country wants and appreciates. So, when we vote for people in the primaries in particular, who are, at the extremes, it makes it challenging because it appears that the people on the ballot are extremes.
A’SHANTI
When we were just talking about compromise and hearing you speak, it reminded me – I don't know, listeners, if you've seen this video of Eartha Kit, she's doing an interview back in the day, and it's about relationships. And the guy asked her, you know, would you ever compromise in a relationship? And she does this crazy laugh, like, compromise is stupid.
[Eartha Kitt “Compromise is stupid!”]
Like, that is what came to mind. And we have seen, especially these past few presidential election cycles when we do get to the general, people are saying it is two evils. And when I think about that, for me, I tell people, I think that's a way just not to get people to vote, that it is absolutely just not going to matter who's in charge because both of them suck, which I do not agree to
TAMMY
Oh yeah. It's, it's, it's very challenging, and it, it opens the door for, uh, folks to want to go to third parties because of that reason, because the third party candidate is very singular in their focus. It's not really about a holistic understanding of how these different issues connect with one another. It is about my emotion about a particular item, and because the person speaking agrees with me emotionally, then that's where I'm going, too. For the major parties, the candidate may emotionally agree with you. At the same time, there is an understanding that your neighbors may have a different view. And so that major party candidate must be able to appeal to all of these different spaces and not just this one space. I would argue that the third parties do not have an intention of winning.
A’SHANTI
Mm-Hmm.
TAMMY
Because if they did, they would be on the ballot in all 50 states.
A’SHANTI
I do wanna really break this down for our listeners. So we know we have the two major party candidates, but they say there's about 52 minor parties in the country. So while we hear about the independence and the Green party, et cetera, there are thousands of people who literally run for president every four years. But it is just really those main people from the major parties that we see on the stage who get the interviews, who are at the party conventions, et cetera. So there are lots of people every four years that step up to run for president.
TAMMY
You know, third parties have a role in politics. And the role that they play in politics is to illuminate those particular issues, again, that have an emotional connection to people. The Green Party for a very, very, very long time, has been talking about environmental issues. Part of the challenge the Green Party has was that they only talked about environmental issues. If the Green Party talked about environmental challenges as it impacts rural areas and farmers and how our food is produced, how our food is able to grow and then how that food is able to reach the masses. And then you can connect food with healthcare also, because if we don't have these nutritious foods that help farmers in rural areas, then we create healthcare challenges, preventable healthcare challenges, particularly in the urban areas where most people live, then it would show a level of depth and understanding that even though you are focused on this one item, you see the connectivity with all these others.
That is the challenge with third parties is that they have one focus and they don't necessarily have a breath that could go to other components. And so what the major parties then tend to do is allow third parties to be able to have these conversations about the environment, about taxes, about schools to have these conversations to basically soften the electorate to be more open to the major parties accepting those third-party candidate platforms. That’s why third parties are important. Let the third parties talk about those particular issues. You saw this in the 2020 primary when Andrew Yang started talking about Universal Basic Income. And at first it’s like “what? You want to give everyone a check? Just for existing?” Like that seemed to be a very radical idea. Then you see a conservative in congress, in the senate, Mitt Romney, talking about Universal Basic Income.
A’SHANTI
Yes. We saw that with Andrew Yang. We have Jill Stein. This cycle, there’s a lot about RFK Jr. and his race. But I kind of wanna go a little back in history and listeners, this is also just Ashanti's nerd side coming out. For me, the first big third-party presidential candidate I can remember is Ross Perot. There was an SNL skit too about him. They were always making fun of him. And then also another debate where they were just making fun of him trying to poke in and get a word in. Can you tell us what that was like? Because I think for a lot of people in recent history, it was when we saw a third party presidential candidate kind of play a major role in having an impact on the two major parties.
TAMMY
So I grew up in Texas, and so I was there when Ross Perot was running in 1992. And it was utterly fantastic from a young nerd, um, who did not
A’SHANTI
Young nerd to young nerd, I'm loving it.
TAMMY
Yes, yes, yes, yes. Um, so Ross Perot, in Texas, in 1992, ran for president as a third party against, uh, Bill Clinton and George HW Bush. And one of the things that he did that I have never seen a presidential candidate do since is that he bought airtime on PBS in order to talk about his financial plan.
[Ross Perot on PBS: “Good evening. Tonight we are going to talk about how to solve the problems and redefine….”]
TAMMY
And, um, it was discussing, um, the impact of taxes, the impact of the debt in particular.
[Ross Perot on PBS: Public debt should be reduced. The arrogance of public officials should be controlled. These are not new words…”]
TAMMY
He was the first candidate that I remember talking about the federal deficit and federal debt and the impact it has on the country. And, and that was the whole presentation that he did when he brought this time on PBS. And it was impactful because then you had the major candidates: Bill Clinton and George HW Bush also started having a focus on, on the financial well-being of this country. Ross Perot performed so well that there was no majority winner for president. There was a plurality in terms of no one got 50, 50% plus 1% of the national, um, vote for president.
A’SHANTI
Thinking about that is very interesting to me because coming of age in politics, Ross Perot was the first real third party candidate. So to think about it, where I'm in now, at my age, the fact that we've had these past three interesting presidential elections where you've had one candidate, we're in the electoral college and one candidate win the popular vote, it definitely puts more in context the impact that third party candidates can have.
I think the last election cycle, third-party candidates definitely got a lot of attention, totally getting a lot of attention this cycle as well, because we have Cornell West who we know is a very prominent figure in American politics. RFK, Coming from the Kennedy clan, just even having that last name, that's going to bring you a lot of attention. But you also talked about how not every candidate is going to be on the ballot in every state, especially those third-party candidates.
So really focusing it on this election cycle, what do you think the impact of the third-party candidates will be?
TAMMY
It could be a 2016 race where you have third parties on ballots only in strategically competitive states. Yeah. And this is why I say that there's an unseriousness, A'shanti, with third party candidates.
A’SHANTI
Mm-Hmm.
TAMMY
Because if we were, if you were serious, then you would not wait until the last minute to try to get all these petitions signed in order to be on the ballot in competitive states. In 2016, when Hillary Clinton ran, Jill Stein actually did a number, uh, on Hillary Clinton in the Midwest and be, and that's where, um, the former president won the election is because of the Midwest. Again, the lack of being in the other states, like having a singular focus on certain states, that's where there are spoilers. And one could argue unserious about being president, because you are only in selective competitive, that if you were to get 10, 20% of the electorate, then you are really tipping the balance of the election. So when we consider the closeness of these elections, particularly in these states that are swing states, third-party candidates have an upset in, in the race. Many of the folks who vote for third parties will, will intellectually understand, “I know my candidate is not going to win.” Yet you're still voting for people who do not have a chance of winning, upsetting the overall race.
A’SHANTI
You just had me thinking about so much because when I think about the post 2016 election coverage, especially in those states where you had Jill Stein and other third party candidates on the ballot, it was just so easy to go to. Democrats didn't vote black and brown voters didn't vote, these people didn't vote. It never factored in these third party votes. And the impact, and we know in so many states, like you mentioned, it was very close.
TAMMY
Sometimes, we view politics as this quote-unquote game as if there's no impact or consequences to these decisions. And there are tremendous impacts and consequences that have generational upon generational impact. Women's bodily autonomy is real. Taking away the structures and boundaries and rules that make a functioning republic that is real. And when we focus on those emotions and not the lasting impact, then we get a 2016 result.
A’SHANTI
Ooh, so much to what you just said. And, yeah, I really need for the media to start posing this questions to these third-party candidates: “Why aren’t you on the ballot in Kansas, in the Dakotas.” Frankly there’s a lot of questions I need for them to be posing but they’re not.
And I was recently at a gathering and got to hear from Bobby and Barbie Wine of Uganda.
[Bobby Wine on France 24: “It’s important to know that Uganda has been run for General Yoweri Museveni, who has succeeded in crushing every opposition against him…”]
A’SHANTI
If anyone knows anything about Uganda, it used to look like the US until a candidate kind of ran as a joke. And guess what? Now it's not a joke over there in Uganda. And Bobby ran to get the country back on track. He actually won, but he's not president now because it's no longer a democracy. And I think we're just gonna repeat that. Yes, we're gonna have feelings. We are humans. We're gonna have big, big feelings, especially now, as not only our country is changing, but the world is changing, but feelings are not facts. And we really have to think about what is the country going to look like in these next 10, 20, 30 years. Especially for those of us who care so deeply about the next generation. You know, I have niece, nieces, and nephews. I vote for them. Making sure that they're going to have a good future. And a lot of people, they're not running to make sure that we have a good future.
I do wanna take us to this current moment. We have had the switch, as I like to call it, where President Biden has decided not to seek reelection. He endorsed Vice President Harris. We're about to go into the Democratic National Convention where she will officially become the nominee. And I just finished doing a panel and letting people know that we're talking about third parties. And it's something that we need to think about. How do you think this has changed people's perceptions about third parties wanting to vote third parties, there's this huge amount of energy around the vice president.
TAMMY
When it comes to the third parties and how they are positioning themselves with the current vice president. What I've seen outside of some outliers is that those groups that were none of the above during the primary or or something of that iteration have come around to understanding that it is a binary choice. And while it's fine to project your disagreement with a group of people, when it comes to elections and voting, at some point, progressives and liberals really have to take a moment and to appreciate the impact on policy when it comes to voting. And what I've seen is that conservatives will dislike a candidate and will say, I dislike the candidate elected officials, elected Republicans say, I do not care for this person yet I am voting for the Republican ticket because I care about the policy.
A’SHANTI
There's a saying that Republicans fall in line and Democrats fall in love. Yes. And with that love, we expect perfection. Mm-Hmm, that you have to agree with me on every single issue in order for me to vote for you. And we talked about this, you know, on the, a panel that I was doing that with the vice president, that is very much going to be a thing. People expecting perfection. And nobody is perfect. Looking at this election, what do you see as some of the biggest threats? Or what is the biggest threat that you see as a government scholar? Is it still third parties? Is it going to be voter suppression? Is it going to be misinformation, disinformation? What should we really be on the lookout for?
TAMMY
Um, the biggest threat to our republic is apathy from the people.
A’SHANTI
Ooh.
TAMMY
And, um, I say this because the people are the most powerful entity in this republic. Without we, the people voting for individuals, those folks won't get in power, um, in order to lead this country. Apathy comes in many different forms. One of those forms is, uh, deciding not to participate in this republic. The other part is when we consider some of this, uh, information that is out there, much of the information that's out there, um, co-signs people's emotions yet are adverse to the facts. I would challenge us to consider listening to people who are bringing facts to us, even if it does not align with our emotions. Then we can be better equipped to filter through what is real, what is not real. And if we are able to do that, we can be more powerful, again, as the most powerful entity in this country. And then we can demand more of those folks running for office. Part of something that is very challenging for me to say, I feel it in my heart, I don't know if I've said it out loud. The challenge, the thing that's really hard for me to say is that we get the government we deserve by our actions that we take.
A’SHANTI
Mm-Hmm.
TAMMY
And our government, that is for the people, by the people, means that the way we participate, the way we project our wants and needs and desires, the way that we come together under the First Amendment to petition our government to assemble, to speak, those privileges that we have can easily go away when we do not participate fully in this process. And it's not a game.
A’SHANTI
So Tammy we are going to close out but any final thoughts that you would love to share with our listeners?
TAMMY
I fully appreciate that both of my grandmothers had their children before they had the ability to vote. And, um, to look at my grandmothers to, to, to be like, you know, you had to be a grown woman. Um, and for one of my grandmothers near retirement age, to be able to participate, to be a full citizen in this country, because that's what it is. When we're able to vote, you are a full citizen in this country. And to dismiss what it meant for them to be that age, um, before they were full citizens, then it would be shame on me for not taking advantage of what they could not for so long.
A’SHANTI
I agree 100%. I vote because I feel I have a responsibility to. There were people who honestly died for us to be able to have this right to vote, and I don't take it lightly. And we are in another historic presidential election year where we now have Kamala Harris at the top of the ticket. Now, a few days ago, I was actually able to go to a gathering of women leaders, and it was held at Gloria Steinem's house.
And that was very symbolic, why we had that meeting at her house. It's because in 1972, that is where everyone gathered for Shirley Chisholm before they headed off to the Democratic Convention to support her. So in 2024, it was women leaders gathering again in Gloria's living room to do some plotting before we headed off to the Democratic National Convention to support Kamala Harris.
There are so many women who have paved the way for us, and I want to thank your grandmothers for everything that they did for us to even be here to be able to have this conversation.
TAMMY
Our communities are the ones that are impacted the most. We, we are new full citizens to this country, and I would like to see more of us taking on that mantle to move government in the direction that benefits the masses.
A’SHANTI
That was Tammy Greer, a public policy expert from Georgia State University whose research focuses on the role of third parties in U.S. elections.
Brought to you in partnership with Third Way, a Center Left Think Tank, and the driving force for high impact ideas and advocacy campaigns that can unite the vast American middle to build political power and deliver solutions
Thank you so much to all of our listeners. Please take the time to rate and review wherever you listen to your podcasts. It helps us so much!
For more information on the Brown Girls Guide to Politics, check us out at the BGGuide.com and on Facebook, Instagram, and X at The BGGuide. This show is produced by Wonder Media Network. You can find them at WonderMediaNetwork.com.