In our final episode on third parties, we're doing a deep dive into the role of third party candidates in this year’s critical election. Rahna Epting, the executive director of MoveOn, joins A'shanti to discuss the slate of third party candidates, how they might impact the outcome of the election, and how "the switch" on the Democratic side could impact things. We're laying it all out in this episode, so you have the information ready come November.
In our final episode on third parties, we're doing a deep dive into the role of third party candidates in this year’s critical election. Rahna Epting, the executive director of MoveOn, joins A'shanti to discuss the slate of third party candidates, how they might impact the outcome of the election, and how "the switch" on the Democratic side could impact things. We're laying it all out in this episode, so you have the information ready come November.
Thank you to our partners at Third Way for making this mini season of The Brown Girls Guide to Politics possible. Third Way is a center-left think tank and the driving force for high-impact ideas and advocacy campaigns that can unite the vast American middle to build political power and deliver solutions. Learn more about our research on third parties in 2024 at www.thirdway.org/thirdparty.
The Brown Girls Guide to Politics Podcast is all about amplifying the voices of women who are too often forgotten in media coverage. Host A’shanti Gholar leads conversations with women changing the face of politics. In the BGG to Politics blog, A’shanti created a space for women of color to learn about the current state of politics, to support others breaking into the political sphere, and to celebrate incredible women changing the course of the country. A’shanti founded the blog in 2018 and Wonder Media Network is thrilled to extend her platform to audio.
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A’SHANTI
Hey Brown girls, A’Shanti here. I'm your host for The Brown Girls Guide to Politics. Today we're bringing you the final episode of this mini season. In July, we saw a historical decision from President Biden when he announced his drop from the 2024 presidential race. Today, we're gonna talk about the increasing stakes of this election and zooming in on the projected impact of third party candidates as we get closer to election day. We’re excited to welcome back my friend Rahna Epting, the executive director of MoveOn — a liberal grassroots organization dedicated to electing inclusive candidates and pushing progressive policies.
Rahna, I am so excited to have you back. Listeners, as you know, when we have a repeat guest it is because they are really, really good and Rahna is really, really good. And if you haven't listened to her original episode, I'm not gonna shame you, but I'm kind of gonna shame you. Go back and listen to it. But Rahna, would love just to have you introduce yourself for anyone who may not be familiar with you.
RAHNA
Yeah. Well, thank you A’Shanti. I'm so happy to be here. I'm Rahna Epting. I'm currently the executive director of MoveOn, but I've been in this work to try to help our country function for people for a long, long time. And I am most proud to be supporting and leading MoveOn in the work that we do as a progressive political campaigning organization across the country.
A’SHANTI
MoveOn is such a powerful organization. We did our original conversation when you were just coming into your role, which is very exciting. And I do wanna talk about how you have said from an early age, you just had a strong sense of agency and responsibility to sculpt the society you live in. And we know that a key way to do that is through elections and voting for your elected officials. So can you just tell us a little bit more about that sculpting work?
RAHNA
Yeah. I mean, I've always had a strong sense of responsibility to my community and to — when I see something not working — to be a constructive agent of change. And that started from a young age. My dad and mom just have zero patience for complaints. And anytime I complained as a young girl, they were like, you know, “well, what are you gonna do about it? How are you gonna change it? How are you gonna fix it?” And I appreciate that — at the time it drove me crazy — but I appreciate that. And I think, you know, that that applies no matter where we are in our lives — in this very complicated world and with a lot of beauty, but also a ton of complicated challenges for us to solve. It’s like, how do we find the agency we have to make it better?
And we all have some form of that agency and I think MoveOn — as a national digital-first organization with millions of members in every congressional district in the country — one thing we try to do is help people. Very busy people who are living their lives, taking their kids to school, working one or two, three jobs. Giving them the opportunity in a moment to take action with millions of other people so that they can actually have an impact in the decisions that are made that govern our country or the people that are elected into power. I think that is a beautiful thing and that's, that is literally why I signed up to be a MoveOn member over 20 years ago — I'm dating myself — [LAUGS] and it's why I've stayed a MoveOn member and little did I know 20 years later, I'd be the executive director of this organization.
A’SHANTI
Hmm. I feel you on that one because I didn't know almost 20 years ago, when I responded to an email asking me if I would help start the Emerge affiliate in Nevada, that 15 years later, then, I would become the first Black woman to lead it. I think it's important for us to share that though, that you actually can ascend to these positions just by volunteering, just by being a member of an organization. You don't have to have the political connections, the family history, that huge network, you know, in order to lead a national political organization.
RAHNA
Very true.
A’SHANTI
So I do wanna dive into this crazy election year that has been 2024. So much has happened over the past few weeks. We have had the “switch” — as I just like to call it — where we did have.
RAHNA
I like that. [LAUGHS] The “switch”.
A’SHANTI
The “switch”. We have the “switch” where President Biden, he did drop out of the race and he endorsed Vice President Kamala Harris to replace him. And even before the “switch”, MoveOn was heavily involved in the election at all levels. So, really just wanna get your thoughts on, you know, how have things shifted? Maybe, maybe not with your work, and have you seen any new challenges that have emerged when we are on the road to having our first woman president?
ARCHIVE
Well, there she is the Vice President of the United States, Kamala Harris. “Let us fight for the ideals we hold dear and let us always remember when we fight, we win. God bless you, God bless the United States of America.”
RAHNA
What an exciting moment for all of us. I would say the threats that existed before then still exist. Now they just might look a little different, or act or behave a little different. But when Biden was a nominee you know, over a year ago, we knew that the Republicans — I would say MAGA Republicans — were hell-bent on setting up any roadblock they could to, in front of allowing Dems to win, Democrats to win in November. And that first roadblock was this ridiculous campaign by No Labels. The quote unquote “bipartisan organization” No Labels trying to run a third party presidential ticket for office. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm gonna be very clear. I think having more choice in our elections is critical and it's important and it's the democracy I dream of and so many of us dream of.
But at the national level, we gotta deal with the world as it is, not as a world as it should be. And we have a two-party system at the national level. So we saw very clearly right away with our colleagues at Third Way that a third party presidential candidate, the only thing they would do — because they have no pathway to win — they would get in the way of the Democratic nominee from winning and ensuring Donald Trump was backing off. So long time ago, over a year ago [LAUGHS] we were on the case to make that very clear to the press, to voters, to potential candidates that running as a third party presidential candidate is not gonna do any of us any good, if you agree that Donald Trump should never be, step foot in the Oval Office ever again.
A’SHANTI
I agree with you there. I mean Trump 2.0, it still very is real. And you know, this threat from third party candidates, you know, is still real too. There are several who are on the ballot that people will be able to vote for. And from what you're seeing, has there been like a shift in third party momentum ever since the “switch”? I know for me, I'm seeing a lot less in the press, but we also know that's because Vice President Harris is filling out stadiums and air hangers at her rallies, which are not AI generated everyone. Those are very much real. You know, we hear about Trump's meltdown because his ego is fractured. He does not know how to deal with a powerful woman. We have seen that, you know, is just who he is. But just wondering for, you know, some of those voters who are still thinking about third party candidates, is that still coming up in the work that you're doing?
RAHNA
It sure is. And any, anytime a third party candidate has tried to run for president, it comes up in the work and it's made an impact. And in 2016, you know, that's how we ended up with Donald Trump. Jill Stein ran as a third party candidate. She picked off a significant enough amount of votes to ensure that Hillary Clinton didn't get 270 electoral votes. And we don't wanna make that same mistake again. This happened with Ralph Nader. And I'll admit it, I volunteered for Nader. I was a Nader Raider [LAUGHS], I was straight out of college or finishing college and was an environmentalist and someone who believed that money in politics was a problem. He was a breath of fresh air to me. But I did not understand at the time the impact of my vote. I just was making a vote based on what I believed and I was leaving the strategy aside.
The other thing I would say is George W. Bush is no Donald Trump. Like he wasn't great and I did not like him and I thought he was awful, but he wasn't trying to undermine the very sanctity of American democracy itself. He was doing a lot of bad things, but he wasn't ripping that out. So I guess to your point, there's a lot of third party candidates. They were popping up under a Biden-Trump rematch because there was low voter enthusiasm for either of the candidates. So they presented an opportunity to leverage that enthusiasm. And you had Robert F. Kennedy Jr. putting his flag down and running as a third party candidate, but funded by Donald Trump's biggest donor — Tim Mellon — which is interesting. You had Jill Stein putting her hat in the ring and Cornel putting his hat in the ring. And I would say R.F.K. Jr.’s numbers were concerning.
But as the year went on, and then once we saw Harris as the nominee, we're seeing their numbers drop. And that is because the enthusiasm gap is all but gone. And I think people are genuinely excited for Harris-Walz, like they're presenting a vision. So I think that we'll see third party saliency decrease in the presidential as we move forward. But do make no mistake, they are still quite a threat to the November election outcome. And any third party presidential candidate, a vote for them is strategically the same as a vote for Donald Trump. And that's the problem that we have to tackle because I know there's a lot of good people who are trying to just do the right thing and do good things. They're not trying to vote for Trump in making that decision, but the impact will be actually helping him get back in the White House.
A’SHANTI
Absolutely. And I know there's people who get, you know, upset when we say that. You know, I was actually on a call and it was really — I'm gonna keep it real with you all — really, really unfortunate for me to hear a prominent Black woman influencer just say that she was telling people just not to vote, like not to vote for any of them. And then there was a different influencer who chimed in and said, “that's a vote for Trump.” You know, and they started disagreeing about it, but I agreed with the other influencer. They want for people to stay home. And that's how a lot of these elected officials at the state and local level get into office, because of that apathy. And I really wanna bring in a conversation that we had with a previous guest. So we spoke to a voter engagement researcher who focuses on Black voters in Georgia. She's with the New Georgia project, and she was saying that third parties weren't really a factor. And she predicted that interest in third party candidates would decrease among Black voters, but might increase with white voters. And I wanted to get your take on that, given that we now have the “switch”.
RAHNA
Girl. [LAUGHS] This election could very well be won or lost on the margins just like it was in 2020. I think in 2020, Joe Biden won with like a total of 20 to 40,000 votes in key battleground states. And that is, you know, that's a 6% for Robert F. Kennedy Jr in some states. That's a 2% for Jill Stein in some states. So it is not to be taken lightly.
A’SHANTI
Mm-Hmm. And for the listeners, I really wanna put in perspective those numbers that Rahna gave us. 20,000 to 40,000 votes — that's literally, in some states, a couple of votes a district. Like that is how significant it is, if you look at a district level, the impact people have when they don't vote or they vote third party. So it, it is real, and I feel I say it every season, but with my work that I do, you know, with women candidates, the hardest calls that I have to make after election day are to those candidates who lost by one vote, who lost by 10 votes, who lost by 50 votes. It is real. It is so real. So whenever someone says, you know, “your vote doesn't matter,” believe me, it matters. Because I have to make some of the most heartbreaking calls every year because someone thought their vote didn't matter. Now, I love what you said about “yes, we want to have more options.” I say it in my work, I'm like, “I want multiple women running for a position, because that's how you normalize having more women in office, more women as candidates when you see them.” But was there anything that we really need to note that is drawing people to these third parties that is telling us something about the current state of American politics in our democracy?
RAHNA
As much as I was on the Biden train — and I, to be clear, I did not agree with him on everything. I was very, very upset with him on some things, but for the most part I thought he was a great candidate. Like both of these guys — Trump and Biden — were old news [LAUGHS]. And I think the vast majority of us can agree that we want more youthful, vibrant, diverse options when we go to vote. And it was, it's time for a new bench of folks to be running for office — especially the presidential election. So yeah, I think that that was a real concern. And there are some folks within the pro-democracy Biden coalition that have serious grievances over Biden's policy in Gaza or around immigration. There are some disaffected voters to be honest. And if you are unhappy for any reason, but you still want to engage civically and state something, then you know, these third party candidates were looking to leverage that opportunity, to leverage that unhappiness and to say, “Hey, come over to my team.”
I think that the more people learn about these third party candidates and how extreme Robert F. Kennedy's agenda is, for example, the less likely they will vote for them. Or the fact that Cornel West is being significantly helped by Republican operatives to qualify for the ballot. Or the fact that Jill Stein is in the hands of Putin and Russia, the less likely they'll vote for her. There is evidence that Jill Stein dined with Vladimir Putin and his team. There's actual photographic evidence. She joined Michael Flynn, who is a MAGA extremist, as the only other American to sit down with Putin at this dinner in 2015. There are newspaper reports of this. She spread misinformation around President Biden's historic investments in climate and infrastructure. She even falsely blames Biden rather than Trump — well, Trump's MAGA justices — for overturning Roe v. Wade, which in my opinion is like complete blasphemy.
Everyone knows these are Trump's appointed Supreme Court justices. All three of these candidates, to be clear, they know very well they can't win the presidential election, but they're saying something very different to voters. And I think that should cause genuine question around their intent and their motivation here. That any of these guys could be the reason why Donald Trump ends up back in the White House and that is a significant threat to Black Americans in this country, and we all know that. But I think that the challenge remains that a vote for a third party presidential candidate is not a vote that will help that candidate win. It's a vote that actually will help Donald Trump win. So the math is the same no matter who you slot into the third party presidential slot.
A’SHANTI
So Rahna, we know that people, they look at these third party candidates, they do choose these third party candidates. One of the reasons is that they do want more options, different options at the federal level. And we have seen so many countries evolve beyond the two party system, where some have dozens of parties. That could be us one day. We are very much a young democracy — almost 250 years at this point. So for people who are looking for those different options, who are excited about the opportunity to have more options at the federal level, you know, what do you say to them about how can we get there?
RAHNA
Yeah, well first I'll say, completely valid concern and desire. And I think it's shared by millions of people in this country. And I have two answers. Number one, I think one of our most strategic and powerful third parties in this country is the Working Families Party. And I've worked alongside them for years. They have a really smart strategy to build power for a working family's agenda and party throughout this country. And they don't just do it willy-nilly, they have the theory of change in everywhere they go. So you have states like New York or Arizona, where they actually have a Working Families party ballot line and they actually run candidates that win. So I would join or support the Working Families Party, because they're a strategic institution that is going about this in a way that builds genuine power for third parties as opposed to operating as spoilers in different races, which is not what I think most American voters want.
They don't wanna be a spoiler. They actually want a theory of change and ability to win. And so that is a Working Families Party to me, and it's all about an agenda that supports working families. I don't know how you can say no to that. And then I'd say at the national level, you know, for if you want to create a multi-party system at the presidential level, what you're basically saying is that you want to significantly revamp the way the election system works and the party system works. That's not a transactional change, that's a transformational change at the national level. And the only way to do that is to work within the system that exists today. And I think there is clearly one party that believes in strengthening and improving democracy and how it works. And that is a Democratic party. And that's why so many pro-democracy groups have been working with Democrats and some Republicans for so long.
But today's Republican party, the MAGA Republicans, do not have a pro-democracy agenda. If you look at Project 2025, they're literally trying to strip away, you know, the right to vote for so many people. They're literally trying to make, to create minority rule and install loyalists, et cetera, that is not democracy. So I think really the answer is electing a super majority of Democrats to the House and Senate and the presidency around an agenda to strengthen and protect American democracy and make it more functional. And there are reforms that many Democrats are on their record supporting, like the electoral college reform, national popular vote, what have you. And there are reforms that would help create multi-party presidential elections. So I think that is the solution. And it's gonna take us a while to get there, but there are so many examples of movements that have operated over the course of decades that have then won transformational change to our election system.
For example, the right to vote for Black people, the right to vote for women. These didn't happen overnight because somebody got elected and decided they want it to happen. They happened through large scale movements over time and building that support and energy so that those that were elected in power had no choice but to do it. And I think that that is completely feasible, but it's not going to happen overnight. People need to engage and participate and be patient and continue to push. So until that happens, folks should — we need to be clear about what the impact of a third party vote is. And if people still decide to do that, that is their choice. They live in a free country, for now. [LAUGHS]
A’SHANTI
So before we close out, tell me how is MoveOn gonna spend the final weeks of this campaign? And for our listeners, if they wanted to get involved and support the efforts, what can they do?
RAHNA
Yeah, well we are doing a ton. We are running our most robust election program ever in our 26 year history. We are 26 years old, that is true. So first and foremost, we designed an election program where anyone — no matter where you lived in the country — could take part in. And that's super important to us because we're a national group and as someone who grew up in a small conservative town, it's super important to me that we're able to create opportunities, no matter where you live, to take part and help win in November. So we're driving an app scale member driven voter contact program. So we've got MoveOn members across the country, anyone listening can be one of them who raised their hands and said, “I'm gonna host a house party regularly between now and election day, and I'm gonna bring volunteers over and we're gonna write postcards to voters in battleground states.
We're gonna make phone calls to voters in Battleground states. And if we live in battleground states or districts, we're actually gonna knock on people's doors and talk to them about voting.” And I would say since Harris put her hat in the ring, the volunteer numbers have skyrocketed. We're seeing incredible energy. People are having so much fun knocking doors and making phone calls and writing postcards and having parties and being a community together. So we really invite everyone to join us. No matter where you live, there is something that you can do. And then the other thing we're doing is we're asking people to make videos of why they're voting for Harris and Walz and Democrats up and down the ticket. And we, we help curate those videos and the ones that test well, we push them out all across people's streams so people see the actual reality of the fact that people are coming out in droves for Harris and Walz and Democrats and people all over this country. We are the majority of folks that want, that believe in democracy, that want to strengthen democracy so that it works for people, and that believe in people first policies. The last thing I'll say, which is really, really critical work is we're also doing really important to spread the word and educate voters around these third party presidential candidates and the impact of that vote so that people actually have the information they need to make the best decision for this country come November.
A’SHANTI
Yeah, so excited to hear about what MoveOn is going to be doing in these next few weeks leading up to election day. So many exciting candidates on the ballot, like Harris-Walz, so many also down ballot candidates. I always wanna remind people, you got to vote your whole ballot. The majority of the elected offices are at the state and local level. Rahna, thank you so much for being you. For everything that you do. You know, definitely a special thank you for the work that MoveOn has done and Third Way has done to really educate us on these third party candidates at the federal level. Now democracy is on the line, we say that, but we also know with this election, it's even so much bigger than the presidential candidates. It is really about who do we want to be as a country and we have to vote to make sure that we have that country.
RAHNA
Thank you so much, A’Shanti. I'm so happy to be here and I can't wait to win in November.
A’SHANTI
Another critical election year. So let's get it done everybody. That was Rahna Epting, the executive director of MoveOn.
Well Brown Girls, this is our last episode of the mini-season. I hope you enjoyed it. And thanks again for listening.
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For more information on the Brown Girls Guide to Politics, check us out at the BGGuide.com and on Facebook, Instagram, and X at The BGGuide. This show is produced by Wonder Media Network. You can find them at WonderMediaNetwork.com.